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  Ben Folds Underwhelms ‘Second Life’ Residents  
 
 
Posted 2006-10-20 by Tony Walsh
 
 
     
 
A recent launch party for recording artist Ben Folds held in the virtual world of Second Life last night appears to have bombed. Australia's The Age reports that only about 25 avatars attended the invite-only event, while in-world media outlet In the Grid paints a more detailed picture: "[F]or some reason, the event actually started over at the new 'aloft' hotel [clickback]... a full hour and a half before Folds was scheduled to show up, basically a dance party for a bunch of journalists who didn't want to dance... it was never really explained what 90 minutes of high-energy techno dance music had to do with uber-slacker pianist Ben Folds, being spun by a non-Sony DJ using non-Sony music." During a Q&A session with Folds, reports The Second Life Herald, "Ben did show his edginess (tm) by telling a questioner to 'fuck off'... As an employee of MTV put it after the event 'He needs SL more than SL needs him.'"

Matt Mihaly of The Forge calls bullshit on the whole affair: "Almost two dozen people attended. That's right, two dozen. Just think of the impact! Why, if only half of them buy his album, he’ll have sold twelve albums!" Obviously an effort like this isn't about record sales, but it's also clearly not about offering Second Life residents a valuable experience. Like the handful of similar events preceding it [1, 2,3], this one could only be leveraged for its external media buzz potential. The Age and other mainstream publications don't know enough to identify events like this as anything but a major-label snow-job (that's what we have bloggers for). The business community thinks events like this are about engagement. Frankly, I think users could be more effectively engaged with a streaming video concert or web-based interactive narrative--at least the audiences in this case could number in the thousands.
 
     
 
   
 
   
  79 Comments  
 
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 20, 2006 @ 7:01 pm
     
 
Good coverage, Tony. Battle of Who Could Care Less, anyone?

I heard about the Ben Folds pre-party and the concert, and even asked a Sheep if I could get an invitation, and didn't get an answer really, and figured it was overcrowded like all these things.

I like Ben Folds, even with him being dubbed a has-been, but I want his handlers, like all these SL handlers, to get it through their heads: they must, must, MUST provide a workable, playable, URL for their concert servers so that the unlucky non-40 people on that one sim can ALSO hear it. These "spillover concerts" are in fact more fun than the official thing because people can brew their own mix of setting, people, conversation, etc. with the music in the background. They can dance or not, listen or not, talk, etc.

And not a single one of these fancy concert promoters seems to grasp this. I remember talking for an hour in exasperation with the people who were called "engineers" for the event with Kurt Vonnegut. What, it was so hard to simple paste me the URL? None of the handlers or even the engineer could understand this simple thing that any rentals agent or landowner knows. It's no more rocket science than pasting the URL off your Winamp.

Of course, you need to have that server working, and think of the people outside your venue constantly to make sure it is not falling offline. That's something that the SLCC organizers failed to do, leaving most prospective inworld auditors of the vaunted SLCC II this year completely uninvolved.

In time, they'll figure it out: groups plus pastable URLs will give them their access to the public.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Rez
October 20, 2006 @ 7:29 pm
     
 
Actually, the Ben Folds thing WAS streamed to 5 other sims, so I think promoters are definitely starting to get the picture.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
October 20, 2006 @ 10:19 pm
     
 
Prok, it's too bad you didn't get access to one of those streaming locations Rez mentioned.

Rez, thanks for letting us know there were streaming stations -- was that audio only or audio/video? I don't this in a cheeky way, but I find it interesting that none of the commentators on this event seemed to be aware of the other access-points. Anyway, kudos on those alternate spots, that's the way to go if you must broadcast in SL.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Rez
October 20, 2006 @ 10:34 pm
     
 
Tony, the main event was audio only, with Ben running his avatar and present via streamed audio as well. I didn't even know about the other sims until after the gig/event, and I work with ESC myself. So the points that Giff/Forseti makes on InTheGrid about communication with attendees (and most of SL in general) are very relevant to your question, and I think Prok's comments above reflect some SLers view that it should be very easy to do, simple even, when in fact it remains (at this point) still quite difficult to coordinate.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 20, 2006 @ 10:41 pm
     
 
Hey Tony.

I was fortunate enough to get an invite to the event last night, and I heard today about what some people were saying. While I am under deadline and I don't have time until later this weekend to blog about the event, I would like to dispel some of the misinformation. While I am biased as a fan of Ben Folds, I'm also a competitor to eSheep, but I'll stick to the facts.

1. Attendance was not "25". At one point I specifically checked the sim on the map and saw that there was 45 people there and several "green dots" waiting at the sim edge wanting to get in. There definitely were people who came late and people who left early, so that number is probably higher.

Now, the number mostly likely came from the fact that Second Life only lets you see a capped amount of avatars simultaneously, based (a) on a hard limit of 35 and (b) Your viewer's settings.

So, I hear Australia's "The Age" saying 25, and I think: "Gee, I've never heard of them involved with the Metavere at all. They probably don't know what they're doing." More than likely they had the default SL viewer settings on and only *saw* 25, and based it on that.

2. "Fuck off" and other comments. These are totally out of context. Ben, unlike other celebrities who stick to a stage, came down and was mingling with the crowd of people. There was a lightsaber fight and much goofiness. While this isn't a testiment to organizational skills of eSheep, this does mean that Ben was being himself, having fun, and joking around. It's a mature sim. And apparently he flicked off the audience at Conan O'Brien the same day - so maybe it's a running gag. The *content* of his new music is also iconoclastic, so this is very in-line.

3. The employee of MTV in question - (actually, MTV2) - is a personal friend of eSheep. His comment's out of context as well.

I'll blog more later this at http://secondtense.blogspot.com - there were definitely some really important aspects to this event that are being overlooked by naysayers.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Urizenus
October 20, 2006 @ 11:01 pm
     
 
Please Hiro you weren't even there when the MTV guys spoke so don't give me the "its out of context" line.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
October 20, 2006 @ 11:01 pm
     
 
Rez-
I had hoped maybe there might have been video captured in-world of the launch and rebroadcast at those streaming locales. Given Giff's and your own comments about the technical challenges in coordinating an event like this, I wonder if the ESC gang is trying to put a square peg into a round hole. I don't doubt you could get the square peg to fit eventually, I just wonder if it's worth the trouble. I suppose that's what "pushing the envelope" is all about (although at this point it remains to be seen if the envelope will just rip in half).

Hiro-
Thanks for adding your perspective on this, I look forward to reading your future blog post on the subject. Lots of interesting points to respond to in the short term:
Regarding the attendance, I'm not sure it really matters if it was 25 or 45--don't get me wrong, I think it's nice they packed the sim, but we're still not talking about even hundreds of people here--since the streaming stations were audio repeaters, I don't think they count much as "being there" in terms of that elusive "engagement" descriptor.
The quotes being taken out of context is unfortunate--I blame the Herald first, and myself second :) [SCAPEGOAT!!] Mostly what I wanted to get across was Uri's cynicism about the edginess (tm) of this event.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 20, 2006 @ 11:07 pm
     
 
Urizenus - thanks, I totally deserved that harshness.

Oh, wait. No, I didn't. :) Chill out, dude. You're taking my comment way too personally.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 1:07 am
     
 
Look, I talked to SnoopyB Zamboni himself who told me "I have to interview Ben Folds in a few minutes". He could have sent a URL to paste, or an invite -- but he was too preoccupied.

They did not announce it anywhere I could see, but then, there are many conflicting blogs and such now, no centralized place. Was it on the events list?
I dunno.

Rez, I don't see it yet -- and possibly they view that URL as proprietary like an mp3 they don't want downloaded. Once again, the idea is not to have 5 of your own sims; the idea is to have people all over SL -- thousands of people in this world that allegedly has million in it -- be able to hold their own event.

Tony, you are still perhaps not grasping: the URL must be *passed out to other people for them to paste*. Like knowing a radio's place on the dial. You tune in. You don't just go to where they are doing the streaming -- that's narrowcast, not broadcast. I'm suggesting the way to give more numbers of people access and have a greater overall impact is to disseminate your server's URL -- ideally well before the show, and ideally, having it work on the day of show. I'm talking about the ability of any landowner to paste in the address and hear it on their own, on their land, not queueing up on someone else's land.

I mean, do we interact with the brand in this Brave New World or do we not? Do we sit on sims passively and have push media? or do we mix and mash?

Hiro, your comments about the "letting you see capped amount" sounds odd to me. You click on the sim, and it tells you right on the map: 25 avatars, 39 avatars. The map does not lie. It may update slowly, but over and hour, you click, you see. Pretty simple stuff.

Hard to imagine any context that would "fix" what the MTV guy said.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Rez
October 21, 2006 @ 1:16 am
     
 
I hear you Prok, and I agree on the narrowcast vs broadcast, but not having been part of this project, I've no idea if Sony wanted to keep the stream limited or what.

Hiro's comment about the 35 avs max seeable seems to be true, which is why when you're at big events you can only see (on your client) a fraction of the avatars present (whatever total/35 is, if you have your preferences set correctly).

Tony, I guess I have a hard time seeing why it's not worth it to try these kinds of events -- SL is one of the only platforms/games (correct me if I'm glaringly wrong) where this sort of interaction is even occuring. The company gets to test out the waters of SL and get some sort of feedback, the people who attend get to meet (albeit virtually) a celebrity, and the celebrity gets to have fun like the rest of us (and I do think he had fun, even if it was slightly (or very) pampered for him in relation to a regular new player). I've recently heard people saying they didn't want this kind of event coming to SL, but I'm pretty sure it couldn't go anywhere else, and that sentiment seems kind of dictatorial -- 'NO! This is MY SL! You can't come in here!' -- companies see a use for SL (or at least are testing the waters), people get excited about the chance to meet a celebrity, and when people know what they're getting into, they seem to have a pretty good time. I sort of have the feeling that it's only a square peg/round hole type deal here in the early days, and by doing events such as this one, we're all learning what it takes to whittle that square peg down to fit better for everyone.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 1:21 am
     
 
Rez, are you hearing my point about the MAP not lying -- whatever your "visibility" is. You click, it says "29 avatars on sim" or whatever.

I think the problem for these celebrities is that they are used to dealing in RL with handlers, groupies, agents, etc. and the experience in SL is suddenly more intimate, with all kinds of random people, and it probably makes them cranky.

I agree that it is about whittling, and that ESC is having the stomach and the determination to whittle that square peg. They won't do the whittling though if we have to view each one of these events through a gauze of fluff.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Rez
October 21, 2006 @ 1:24 am
     
 
Yes, Prok, I do hear you about the map not lying -- I think Hiro's point was that the guy from the Australian mag probably didn't know enough about SL to check the map, so he based what he wrote on what he saw around him, rather than checking a more reliable source.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 21, 2006 @ 1:43 am
     
 
Prok:

re: map clicking

Yes, exactly. I had checked the map and saw 45. That means 25 comes from either: (a) Checking the map intentionally when it was emptying out at the end -- or more likely, (b) My explanation above, as Rez further explained - they probably didn't know that they could check the map.

re: Broad/narrowcasting

My guess is that the stream had a limited number of connections on the server, and they held the URL close to prevent the server being creamed. Of course, the debate then is why wasn't it on a more capable server, perhaps. Or recorded and podcasted the next day?

Another issue with the broadcasting was that it seemed that they were using 2 urls, one for the streaming of the microphone, one for music. -- I conclude this because we'd have to restart the streams sometimes when they'd switch, which is an indicator. In that case, it doesn't help to have the URL or not. And, again, it's then a question of, "Why that way?"

re: announcing

I saw it on 3pointD and on benfolds.com.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Marc Broadbent
October 21, 2006 @ 8:13 am
     
 
As the person who personally managed all of the invites to the Ben Folds event, I hope that I can clarify a few things about the event Thursday night. More importantly, I hope this email can give people a bit of insight into what the process is like to execute an SL event with a RL musician:

First, we invited 75 people to the event. We had email requests from over 300 people from around the world. So choosing who could attend was a difficult task. We chose 75 people to add to the "Ben Folds VIP" group because we were concerned that if there were more than 50 people on the sim at any one time, there would be issues with lag and the experience would not be good for anyone. We also knew that of the 75, anywhere from 20 to 25 of them would end of not attending.

So from the very beginning we knew that only 75 people could attend. What was important to us was not the total number (since we can't control this, but rather that the majority of the attendees not be press, staff, and industry by rather be (a) real fans and (b) residents of Second Life.

So, here was the breakdown of people who were invited:

25 people were hard core Ben Folds fans. Many of them had never been inside of Second Life before and signed up for avatars for the first time. We wanted to make sure that fans were there and that it wasn't just "industry and insiders"

Only 8 people where employees of Sony and Ben's management (and of the 8, only three logged in)

5 people where Electric Sheep employees.

1 person was an Electric Artists employee (me)

3 were executives from Starwood Hotels (aloft)

7 people where press (with five of these seven being Second Life press - ie The Second Life Herald)

(In terms of press, we turned away reporters from major outlets to make sure that others could attend)

And finally, 26 were various Second Life residents.

So first, please know that the person who said that the beginning of the event was "basically a dance party for a bunch of journalists who didn't want to dance" is in truth not being completely honest or accurate. As you can see by the breakdown, we made sure that the event was for Ben Folds fans and SL residents. There were only a handful of press (I counted 5) amongst more than 40 people on the dance floor.

Second, each and every person who was invited received an email personally from me that clearly explained how the event was to play out throughout the night.

Here's what the email said (in it's entirety):

Congratulations!

We’re extremely pleased to let you know that you (or rather, your Second Life avatar!) was chosen as one of a select group of attendees for our exclusive aloft / SONY BMG launch party that will take place tonight (Thursday October 19th) inside Second Life with Epic Records recording artist, Ben Folds.

So here is how things will work:

Later today when you log into Second Life, you will automatically be invited into a new Second Life group called “Ben Folds VIP”. To attend the event tonight, you must accept this invitation to join the Ben Folds VIP group.

At 6:30pm ET tonight evening, Starwood Hotels’ new aloft island sim inside Second Life will be closed to all visitors as we prepare for the opening night party.

At 6:45pm, aloft island will re-open, but only for those people who are part of the “Ben Folds VIP” group.

Beginning at 7:00pm, all invited guests should congregate around the Performance Stage on aloft island in front of the hotel. (To get there, all you need to do is to search for “aloft” and then teleport to the island)

From 7:00pm to around 8:45, DJ DNA Prototype will spin records on the outdoor stage. During this time, you’ll be able to meet and chat with other guests, relax by the pool, and check out the new hotel.

At around 8:30 or so, Ben Folds will arrive and take everyone inside the hotel.

Once inside the virtual aloft hotel, Ben will preview music from his upcoming CD, supersunnyspeedgraphic, the lp, and then answer a few questions live from the audience.

Then, just after 9:00, Ben will take everyone over to the new Media Island sim where the party and Q&A;will continue with Ben at the new SONY BMG music venue. (Like aloft island, only those avatars that are included in the “Ben Folds VIP” group will be able to access to Media Island during the event)

Again, we’re absolutely thrilled that you will be attending tonight’s festivities inside of Second Life. There’s only one thing that we ask of you is that if for some reason that you can’t attend the launch event tonight night, please let us know by sending us an email at frontdesk@virtualaloft.com. There are hundreds of people on the waiting list for the party, as we can only accommodate a select few. If you won’t be attending, we’d like to give this spot to the next person on the list.

So on behalf of my colleagues at Starwood Hotels, SONY BMG, ElectricArtists, and Electric Sheep – have a great time tonight and let us know what you think by visiting the aloft developers blog at www.virtualaloft.com.

See you at the party!

Sincerely,

Your friends at aloft hotels, SONY BMG, ElectricArtists, and Electric Sheep


As you can read above, people were clearly told that...

"From 7:00pm to around 8:45, DJ DNA Prototype will spin records on the outdoor stage. During this time, you’ll be able to meet and chat with other guests, relax by the pool, and check out the new hotel."

So the person who complained about it being "a dance party", I guess didn't understand that what we wanted was for people to meet each other and talk before Ben arrived. We wanted fans to get to know each other. We purposely put in an hour and a half of music so that people could meet. You didn't have to come right at 7pm. You could come just as Ben went on if you liked.

So in terms of attendees, for the entire time when Ben was at aloft, there were 45 people attending, not 25. But even with 45 there, seeing that we could cycle in more people at the last minute, I personally went to the sim next door, Argali, and gave over 10 people who were there viewing the event from afar, access to the group and to the event. In addition, those that IM'd me in world also were also given access. Throughout the night, over 80 people attended as some left and some came on.

In terms of how many people where at Media Island, you should consider the following. As the evening progressed, Ben stayed late because he was having a great time. But by 9pm, when Ben was still on stage at Media Island, it was 3 - 4 am in Europe. People logging on from Europe an Asia dropped off to go to sleep. That's expected. Not everyone who attended was from the West Coast or East Coast. Many of them logged on at 2am. They had to work the next day. So to look at the numbers at the end of the night and say "only 25 attended" is not an accurate picture of the event. Again, over 80 attended throughout the night.

In regards to the "Fuck Off" comment, it was taken completely out of context. Ben was having a great time throughout the event. He answered tons of questions, stayed late, danced his ass off, and interacted with everyone.

You should also know that up until the final day over 300 people who we couldn't accommodative at the event all received this email:

"Due to an overwhelming demand and limited space, last night we held a lottery to choose the guests for the aloft / SONY BMG launch party with Ben Folds that will take place tomorrow night inside of Second Life

Unfortunately, we regret to inform you that your Second Life avatar was not chosen as one of the guests. Due to the technical limitations of Second Life, it is not possible to accommodate everyone who wanted to attend.

While we can't grant you full access to the aloft and Media islands during the actual event, at around 8:30 ET time tomorrow night we will be making a live audio stream of the album preview and live chat with Ben Folds available to avatars on the following Second Life sims:

Argali
Sheep Island
Baseball Island

In addition, everyone who did not make the list for this event will have priority for the next series of events aloft hotels does inside of Second Life.

On behalf of my colleagues at Starwood Hotels and SONY BMG, we thank you for your interest in attending the event and are extremely sorry that we can't accommodate you tomorrow night

In the coming days we do hope that you will stop by to check out the new virtual aloft hotel and Media Island in Second Life as we're planning a bunch of surprises including a Halloween costume contest on aloft island on Halloween night.

Sincerely,

Your friends at aloft hotels and SONY BMG"


So as you can see we did tell alot of people that they could listen to the audio on other sims. Did every single person, get the email? No. But hundreds did.

My point in clarifying all of this is not to be defensive. But rather, to explain the real decisions that take place in putting these events on.

We're planning on doing a lot more events on aloft island and each one will be better than the one before because we'll take what we learned and use it to improve the next.

If you have any question, suggestions, or comments, you can always email me at marc@electricartists.com

Best,

Marc Schiller
ElectricArtists
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Marc Broadbent
October 21, 2006 @ 9:38 am
     
 
Just got back from walking the dog (in the real world), so I thought I would mention a couple of other observation and things we learned in doing the Ben Folds event (hopefully it will help others who plan on doing similar events):

1. Most SL residents want to know the SL time of events, not the RL times. We should have put the SL time in the email as well as the RL time.

2. Moving groups of people around SL is not an easy task so we ended up doing the entire aloft portion of the event on the stage rather than moving everyone inside.

3. While I personally added every avatar name into the Ben Folds group, some people didn't get the notifications because of technical clitches on their computers. We should have sent out another confirmation email to everyone making sure that they logged on in advance of the event to ensure that they accepted the group invite.

4. One of the biggest mistakes I made was not giving people my avatar name, Marc Broadbent, to be able to fix and problems that arose. My group name at the event said "aloft management" but this was not as clear as it could have been.

There are a ton of other adjustments we'll make for the next one. Again, if you have any suggestions let us know.

Marc
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 10:04 am
     
 
Marc,

Sounds like it was a special event that mainly rewarded your own employees and PR managers, like an insiders' party. If you read my posts, I am explaining how to get a much bigger audience -- if that's what you want. You send out the URL to every single major club, venue, community leader, etc. or better yet, post it on public forums. Then lots of people can at least hear the music.

Prokofy
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 10:10 am
     
 
Also, I might add, Marc, every single glitch should have been pre-anticipated by these people you pay young fortunes too, the ESC, but they obviously don't have any real experience in managing large groups of people inworld, managing large groups or sims or venues (or on the Internet or real world in general) because they aren't community leaders or club managers or any of the other figures in SL that you imagine or that are really required for this job.

Some of them are merely friends of the Lindens who showed up in beta and stayed, building and selling their own content and then taking a commission to sell it off the Internet to others, like FlipperPA, and becoming skilled and building and scripting. Some, like Sibley, have their own real world company and lots of experience outworld, but not inworld. Some like SnoopyBrown are futurists, thinkers, conference organizers, but haven't really spent much time inworld really grappling with the world's challenges.

I would give you and other would-be metaverse adventurers this piece of advice: open up the bids for your jobs more publicly and specify the real tasks that are needed in addition to Linden connections or media hits arranged by Lindens over the years: specify the skills and real people/venue/events management tasks at hands, and hire somebody like one of the club managers that the Lindens -- and your big businesses -- have put out of business in the last year through a variety of abrupt changes and developments. That would be good for the world, and good for your company.

Prokofy
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Marc Broadbent
October 21, 2006 @ 10:49 am
     
 
Prokofy - First, with over 45 people chosen completely at random how can you honestly say that Thursday night "was a special event that mainly rewarded employees and PR managers"?

To illustrate how important is was to make sure that the event wasn't filled with staff, we had groups of people come over to my flat and others to log on with one account. Yes, there were some SL "names" in the audience, but most likely this is because the type of people who want to attend - and actually do attend - are perhaps well known SL names. The people who log in only a few times a month, aren't the ones that throw their hat in the ring and actually attend the events. It's impossible to make everyone happy on an event that has limited space. All I can say is that we tried our best and will try to improve it again the next time.

Second, and perhaps most importantly to me, for you to say that "every single glitch should have been pre-anticipated" is unrealistic and seems to me to be filled with resentment on your part. Having worked now with Electric Sheep for over three months, I know first hand that they are amazing at what they do. Nobody's perfect. We all made some mistakes on the event. In my mind Electric Sheep has become successful not only because lots of companies want to do things inside of Second Life and they are getting a lot of attention, but because they are good at what they do. The care and attention they took in designing the aloft hotel in Second Life under a tight schedule shows for itself that they are complete pros.

I understand that there are others out there too. And I appreciate your highlighting them in your comment. I know that there are a lot of great designers inside of Second Life that should be get tingmore attention than they are. But this should not be a reason to try to criticize the Sheep for what they do. To say that "they haven't really spent much time inworld really grappling with the world's challenges" is simply not true. The event on Thursday was complex for lots of reasons, none of them created by Electric Sheep.

Prokofy - I'm well aware that there are people who want all of this to fail. Just try to be fair, okay?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Rez
October 21, 2006 @ 12:18 pm
     
 
Prok, your comments illustrate a sense of resentment, which seems to be leading you to make statements that are as easily refuted as your facile (although incorrect) assumptions that ESC somehow should have foreseen every possible complication.

>'...open up the bids for your jobs more publicly' -- why should companies always look for the lowest bidder, rather than a company that has had at least some degree of success with events such as this one? Yes, perhaps the applicants for a particular job/event _might_ have the skills required, but there is a certain degree of proven track record that rl companies often desire for their ventures into a new area.

>'...specify the skills and real people/venue/events management tasks at hands' -- It seems doubtful that these 'would-be metaverse adventurers' will have a very complete knowledge of these factors (at least with regard to SL), and as such will likely not be able to pin down every detail for such a proposal to be comprehensive.

>'...and hire somebody like one of the club managers' -- Why would these people have the knowledge/skills required for an event like this? I sort of find it difficult to believe that any old Joe Avatar who opened a club in SL is going to have much more experience in planning events with rl components. Although I'm sure there are some out there, my guess would be that until they're either a) applying for a position with a metaversal development company as event liason, or b) starting a dev co of their own, they're not really interested in making this kind of event planning their full time job (which is definitely what it takes). And while they may have complementary successes in their rl business (a fact which is typically un-knowable by the public of SL), the truth is that they've become successful with a business that deals in monopoly money, which may or may not translate well for rl companies coming into SL.

For that matter, I wonder why we've not seen Prok Productions as a development company, as you surely have the contacts and knowledge required to manage large groups of people within SL (or at least your words seem to imply that). And even though people may see you as 'teh ebil Prok', there are many people who stand up for you (myself included) when you have good ideas about the future of SL and the metaverse as a whole, but being a perpetual critic without DOing any sorts of large events yourself (or as a part of a dev co) makes you seem less credible.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
     
 
My God, how can you sit there and say 45 people were "chosen at random" when we've already been told the list:

"--Only 8 people where employees of Sony and Ben's management (and of the 8, only three logged in" -- hey that about 4 times too many when 6 of them can't even runs groups and run the door and the floor and help out but merely take up server space;
--"5 people where Electric Sheep employees" -- and they couldn't figure out how to build an audience and spread it beyond five sims??
--"1 person was an Electric Artists employee (me)" -- SL is a hard platform to use. Get some more lessons on it.
--"3 were executives from Starwood Hotels (aloft)"--Erm, dare I say more useless waste of server space? Our list so far completely confirms my point: Second Life is like the Water Club on the East River; a venue for private corporate parties to reward loyal customers, executives, and board members, not a public venue poised to explode beyond a million.
--"7 people where press (with five of these seven being Second Life press - ie The Second Life Herald)"--insiders, all!
--(In terms of press, we turned away reporters from major outlets to make sure that others could attend)-- good thing, they would have been far less charitable than we're all being!

Yes, in short, that IS an "insider's party" when you have press who are all in insiders -- you want to tell me that Metaverse Messenger and Reuters aren't insiders??? Even the Herald is an insider.

>And finally, 26 were various Second Life residents.

Do you actually want to keep a straight face and tell me that these 26 people were completely random, when in fact they were on the friendship cards or groups of the insiders, the FIC and SIC from Counting Sheep? Hello?

I'll bet most if not all these 26 people were in fact the "names" you admit they were, the insiders. It was an insiders' party. Insiders' parties are fine -- but don't call them major media events, then, please.

I see nothing to indicate it was *not* that. Because it wasn't announced publicly, nor was the URL made public for other venues -- pretty straightforward point, and I don't see how you can possibly spin it otherwise.

Marc, indeed every single glitch could indeed have been pre-anticipated by these ESC folks who in fact have put on a large variety of events -- even though I maintain that frankly, they aren't event organizers at heart, they are futurists, programmers, consultants, builders, and old-media PR agents -- and I don't think that represents the consciousness of detail and attention to the community needed.

It's not about "resentment" as I have nothing to resent -- I'm just making the obvious points that any member of the public would make, whereas you're reacting with the shrill, thin-skinned hysteria of these mateurs-quickly-turned-professionals that you've hired.

I'm sorry, but Forseti Svarog might be a "complete pro" at building in 3-d on his own or with a group of his tight buddies in a highly-feted click, but he's not an events manager. You'd do better hiring an inworld club DJ or bother type of events programmer for that. It means the kind of person who is willing to do heavy and constant customer service, crowd control, communications, etc. and who has a wide variety of networks to make sure that the right posting happens on all the most-seen blogs, bulletin boards, groups, etc. inworld and outworld. hat's a person who logs in and LIVES IN THE WORLD. That's not what ESC does. Their group "Counting Sheep" is about informing a close circle of friends about their latest media exploits, not about serving the public.

I hardly want something in Second Life to fail -- but hello, earth to Marc -- virtual world to Marc -- it DID fail. It DID fail -- without me involved, and without me commenting until now, when I saw that the media *already* was covering the failed event.

The fact that you even have to have Hiro Pendragon do your spinning for you, trying to get us to buy the story about how we missed the context from the MTV guy, lets us know how desperate you are.

The Sheep stay on their island, or they hang with their clients in meat-world. They work with a very close, trusted group of friends and Lindens and residents-turned-Lindens and are coping with having rocketed from the status of fanboyz and boutique owners and recent college graduates to being a supposedly professional events management company. They aren't there yet. They will get there when they start looking at these events as real public events with real people in them instead of Disney View-Masters with shiny builds that look good in glossy magazines and Internet sites.

Hey, I know from events, dude, hehe, you just have no idea. I have put on huge dinners for 500 people at the Waldorf Astoria for the presidents of countries in real life, and I run a rentals company with hundreds of people coming and going constantly and hold inworld events. I know enough about the complexity of these events to know that you need to get outside this little orchid hothouse you are in and find the people with the technical and people skills in and out of SL to really care about the public and serve them with working media, PR, information flow, crowd control, etc.

That role is missing in ESC; Infiniview solved that issue by hiring someone who had inworld experience as a content-creator, rentals agent, and events planner and executor. Even she flubbed the problem of extending the event beyond one sim -- which is a political problem as much as it is a technical problem.

Rez, the flawed concept of "resentment" is the chief characteristic of the forums wars that flows from the equally flawed concept that the insiders originally feted by the Lindens (the FIC) and set up to be the feted metaversal consultants steered toward Big Business, are in fact up to the job. They aren't always.

"Resentment" is what little thin-skinned, inexperienced provincial prima donnas hiding behind Nylon Pynckey urban chic avatars imagine others who they figure to be equally little thin-skinned provincial prima donas are feeling about them -- but in fact we are looking on and saying "um, amateur provincial prima donas" from what I guess could be called "an urban perspective".

This event failed not because Prok criticized it or even went to it (it was an utter accident that I happened to IM Snoopy right before he was to interview Ben Folds). It failed because it failed for reasons *they need to study and learn from*.

Rez, I don't know how much you've had RL and SL experiencing in *running* bids as distinct from *answering them yourself*. I've had lots. And it's not about "finding the lowest cost" -- that's absurd. You balance lowest cost, best track-record, needs, appropriateness, etc. Every day people open up Craigs List and other industry papers serving SAG etc to see the gig listings. It's how gigs are given and gotten, not merely by little friendship cliques. More of that needs to be done.

I think what's happening with these really messed up badly run events -- SLCC where FlipperPA really messed up and refused to hear numerous complaints about his utter inattention to the inworld part of the conference; Infiniview's event with Vega and then Vonnegut where Boliver and other refused to hear the issues about creating a network of alternative venues to deal with crowd control and their idiotic feting of Gor and Furries on the attachment issues; and now this ESC event which messed up -- is that the people doing them are USING Second Life like a machine, a door-mat, a gimmick merely to get old-media hits. That's all. That's all it's about.

When they concentrate more on the long-run, on building a community of people around their brand/product/event they will care more about public SERVICE and attention to customer SERVICE than they are now. For that they need customer service agents, not builders and programmers in a video game.

Rez, I guess you don't manage clubs or go to them. I've done both. And there are some amazingly skilled people that I suspect probably make more money than you do off architecture at running large numbers of clubs, shopping sims, rentals, etc. These people and their networks are a natural to run the *customer service, public liaison* feature of a event and are far more suited to doing this heavy interface job than Forseti Svarog or Hiro Pendragon or even SnoopyBrown Zamboni, who is good at specialized industry communications and networking.

Running a public event with heavy unforseen circumstances requires a very dedicated, interactive team with a lot of fall-back plans and planning and punch lists that they work on not on the day of show, but weeks in advance. The place where all of these events fall down at the get-go -- Hamlet Au's too -- is they simply fail to have a very visible, known, available, *logged-on* person at the door. They fail to run the desk at the door, so to speak.

Half the time when I try to go to a Hamlet event, he's not even logged on -- no doubt he hates getting lots of IMs. No one is even in his group answering IMs even though we've been told to join a group. Half the other time when I look for these people around Infiniview or ESC, if they aren't logged on, they aren't answering IMs, and they aren't answering all the questions happening in their groups -- or answering them with non-sequiturs like Snoopy was that night (telling us merely that he post-poned another event instead of how to get to the existing event).

Groups, groups, groups -- these are key to running these things effectively and DJs and clubs and giant rental agents like Anshe Chung are experts at dealing with this hard job. It's the only way we have to communicate in SL short of making everyone go on Aim or Skype.

Builders, AV geeks, sim managers are not the ones who should be running the door and the floor -- those should be other people -- and other kinds of people.

I totally disagree with your attitude about clubs and monopoly money -- they cash it out and make money. Those merely propped up by dwelloper awards were flushed out of the business when the Lindens dropped that subsidy -- or they survived. Even those put out of business at least have a skill that neither you or ESC seems to have: dealing with people, keeping up the banter, the communication, the flow, the pastable URLs, the news, the groups, the cards, etc. It's a certain kind of personality, once described to me in our club we used to have as "the wheels". The wheels of the club make it go round. Otherwise the bus sinks in the mud.

The snotty attitude towards experienced people in world saying that they make "monopoly money" and are lesser beings because they accept micropayment is exactly the attitude I combat hard, Rez. Shame on you. It really stinks. Just because your Big Business clients send you a check in the mail and don't pay you in Lindens doesn't make you a superior class of human being. Your very commission from your very outworld client depends on the thousands of us willing to show up in this very risky and often poorly-working world and work very hard for micropayments in Lindens. If we didn't do these jobs, and if we didn't have thousands of customers consuming our content and services, you wouldn't be able to HAVE a world to show off to your fancier clients. Honestly, I don't get why you are spitting in the well; you may have to drink from it.

As far as I'm concerned, with a remark like "monopoly money" -- like Boliver's callous and arrogant remark about never needing to cash out Lindens -- you've declared civil war between outworlders and inworlders. If civil war is what you want, you'll be getting it from me and many others less vocal than me who are really starting to get very torqued at the displacement happening from Big Business.

It will be a war waged with boycotts of your Big Business clients; it will be a war that some people (not me) will start to wage with griefing. I'd advise you to adjust this attitude immediately -- it's a killer.

I run a large company with events already, duh, it's called Ravenglass Rentals. That keeps me plenty busy. I don't need to make "Prok Productions" -- that's silly. There are people more skilled at the things you need like DJ work and list-making and list-management who run clubs every night in SL who are far more appropriate than me for productions -- I run clubs and events only weekly or occasionally and generally without music.

Right now, you all have someone like me who is critical, but who basically supports what you are doing in our world, and is part of a circle of people who talks to you, and talks to you on a blog that doesn't have millions of readers.

If you keep up your thin-skinned, amateurish, provincial attitudes, you will find these critical remarks not made by me, but by big-time old-style media like major news magazines and the very companies you are trying to work for. Try to learn from the experience instead of blaming the messenger.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Marc Broadbent
October 21, 2006 @ 2:02 pm
     
 
Prokofy - Reading your post reminds me of a saying that my parents used to tell me when I was a kid:

"It's impossible to be rational with an irrational person"

Your ad hominem attacks are extremely negative and bitter and it's of no real value to anyone to debate you on every point.

I know very well that your voice is a very important one in the SL community, and my only hope is that your feelings towards the Ben Folds event and Electric Sheep are in the minority, not the majority.

Reading your blog now for many weeks, I know first hand that there's a lot to learn from you. But in regards to this specific event, and your feelings about the expertise of Electric Sheep, I couldn't disagree with you more.

As a newcomer to these kinds of conversations, I'm aware that my voice is not the most important one. But to say that the event failed is not only not accurate but obviously extremely self-serving.

Again, I only ask that you try a bit to be fair.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Giff-Forseti
October 21, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
     
 
I'm weighing in late but I have posted a review of the event and some of the things that have come up:
http://blogs.electricsheepcompany.com/giff/?p=142

I also included some pictures and quotes from the event.

As for prok's claims about ESC, well, they are nothing new and it gets old refuting them with facts rather than frenzy. Prok makes some very good points about SL and SL culture sometimes, but I never understand why he feels the need to lie. I joined SL a month after prokofy, and it's been this way for two years. We agree on some things and vastly disagree on others. So be it.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Rez
October 21, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
     
 
Prok, you have some very good points there. I perhaps was too quick to say the comment about monopoly money, as I realize there are many who do make a very real wage at what they do inworld, off their solely inworld businesses, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have the time or desire to work with rl companies. I am definitely not trying to start some sort of civil war here, but rather to point out the fact that these type of events haven't been worked out entirely, by either the solely inworld businesses or those that are bringing in rl companies (for example, I see very few people who say they run a club and make a profit, so I'm not sure if they're really cashing out, but I hope they are). That's what my question about the people who run clubs and things of that nature being experienced at planning events with rl components is trying to illuminate.

One thing about your comment that I think doesn't work is that anyone who shows up in SL is doing so voluntarily. And you know that my wife and I lived off what we made from SL and our rl jobs as stonemasons (hard physical labor), and so I hardly think it's arrogance in the fact that we can now get paid for being inworld and working here instead.

Your inworld business, Ravenglass Rentals, I'm sure does keep you very busy, but your expertise would be invaluable to any dev co out there, which is why I asked about Prok Productions, at least as a consultancy even. I'm pretty sure that we've even spoken internally at ESC about hiring just such a person as you suggest, someone who is an events liason solely, who is dedicated to doing the type things you've spoken about here, as they are of course the intelligent ways of working at these type situations.

Please understand we're all (even you :)) working at making these types of events easier for all to enjoy, and whether or not it fits perfectly with everyone's dream of what SL is or could be is a very difficult thing to determine. In fact, it's doubtful that everyone in SL will be exited to see it change in some ways, but until SL goes bust (god forbid), there will be people trying to make them (or events similar in nature) happen.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 2:45 pm
     
 
Marc, my remarks are not ad hominem attacks, they are legitimate criticism of public figures.

I don't understand why I have to be "fair" about -- you mean I'm supposed to not tell the truth about an insular party for insiders? Hello? That's what it was. Ben Folds, has-been or not, deserves better! I always liked Ben Folds! Ben Folds shouldn't have just little clubby FIC types like yourselves running his venue and show, but dedicated professionals who open up the entire thing far more than it has been open -- to other people, networks, groups, fans on other sims, not just on your one or even 6 sims. It's just a simple matter of having a pastable URL! Could we PLeASE get an admission of that? What, you think if you give out the precious URL of your server you are giving away proprietary information? But you don't charge tickets for this event!!!!

I don't "lie" Forseti, I explain that you and your pals are not good at events organizing? Which is why your event got dumped on in the press? It's not about me *shrugs*.

Rez, I'm glad you realize the inappropriateness of dissing people who make "monopoly money". It's wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're going to have to hire not one but even 6 inworld events managers. Look at the existing DJs and rental agents. ADVERTISE FOR THE JOB OPENLY. And you might get the help you need and that your clients deserve.

As for any "Prok Productions," I continue to try to get across to you: I'm not a lame, resentful, bitter person who didn't get their own metaverse production company off the ground and now is sniping and back-biting at those who did. YOu live in that atmopshere among these heavily competitive, gossipy groups so you imagine we're all like that. I don't want a metaversal production company. I want a fair metaverse. These are very different goals. I've fought for the goal of a just metaverse and gotten the coverage I need for my principled struggle. I'm happy with it, but the struggle isn't over.

All I can do is ask you and the other Sheep to look in your souls and ask yourselves: what have you done for the world? What have you done for the world?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 21, 2006 @ 3:00 pm
     
 
"what have you done for the world? What have you done for the world?"

I wasn't aware you were a socialist, Prok. Interesting.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Giff-Forseti
October 21, 2006 @ 3:41 pm
     
 
The biggest problem we have is the number of people that can actually BE at the event, and taste the energy, and laugh about activities, etc. My hope is that next time around, we can get the budget to stream the video live over a webpage, which can obviously scale much higher than a 3D virtual world. I'm not a purist -- I think doing cross-platform stuff is great.

ESC has helped to organize quite a few events, including many simulcasts, such as Supernova conference, Video on the Net conference, the Radio Open Source event, the SD Forum day on virtual worlds, and the Happening (possibly the first simulcast?). We brought in Yankees vs. Red Sox games and the Home Run Derby. However, I will not try to pretend that we aren't still learning and trying to improve. I think folks like Cylindrian and Frogg Marlowe have a lot of experience doing this stuff and we should learn from them too. This was not intended to be a "concert" but as an event interacting with and talking to Ben. For the folks who could be involved, I think it was a hit. I know Ben had a great time. I'd like the next one to be fun for an even larger number of people. Onward and upward. Early days of a technology are always bumpy.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 4:59 pm
     
 
csven, you don't have to be a *socialist* to be for *social responsibility*.

If these Metaversal Myrmidons are going to make us all sit and be immersed with their products and manipulate our souls deeply like this, I'd like to feel they are putting something back in.

You know, the Roosevelts and the Vanderbilts and the Fords first ruthlessly exploited everything and got their gains and built their railroads and then only much later, sometimes a generation later, began giving money to hospitals. I'd like to shorten the time spam between those phases in what is supposed to be our Better World. What is better about THIS, csven?

This was not intended to be a "concert" but as an event interacting with and talking to Ben. For the folks who could be involved, I think it was a hit. I know Ben had a great time.

Ugh, Forseti, this is the kind of grossly insular stuff that you guys are getting known for. Let's go back to my first claim: that it was an insider's party, to reward insiders. And you've proved that in spades, with your comment. Suddenly, it's not a concert. Suddenly, it's a special feted before-party or after-party or pub party of the kind you have in RL to congratulate everybody from board members to agents to staff. Ok, have them, stay in your own groups, and at least try to make the sim work for your little clique. But then Jesus, don't invite the press and pretend it's a public event. It's a special little get-togethe for the Feted Ones.

Frogg Marlowe and Jaycatt Nino have a simple thing they do when their sim is overloaded with more than the 40 or 160 available -- they send you that pastable IM. I then hold another spillover event in my own club space or stadium and tenants and others just flying by can then come and hear these great musicians. It's so simple.

I don't get why you are still fighting the idea of pasting the URL. Then people can at least hear it, like they hear NPR or something.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
     
 
And why would you be going to a web page to stream something when you can find 100 people in SL with venues to stream it from their parcels, each of which can then hold 40 people? Or a 1000 people? As many as can read your ad in a variety of venues. A webpage will have more readers, of course.

But if you are talking about tasting energy and laughing at silly little injokes like the MTV guys (which I imagine is still a spin), then why can't 100 or 1000 other people taste their own energy related to your event?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 21, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
     
 
"csven, you don't have to be a *socialist* to be for *social responsibility*.

I'm aware of that. However, under the circumstances, you sounded to me very much like someone advocating socialism. Perhaps you could provide a checklist that helps companies determine when they should start sacrificing themselves for the benefit of those so clearly unable to help themselves in this virtual world of limited resources and creative restrictions.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
     
 
*rolls eyes*. Are you back to this stuff again, csven? Everyone knows I don't advocate socialism or handouts or freebies or subsidizing people endlessly. Loss-leaders and initial help to newbies is one thing; endless free culture type Marxist stuff is a drag on the economy.

I am quite able to help myself, thank you very much, and it is hardly a call to "sacrifice" or a call for subsidizing "limited resources" or "restricting creativity" (*rolls eyes again*).

If you are going to tell the press that you are holding public events, then hold them? Serve the public? Let them participate? Hey, even CHARGE them. Behave normally like in the normal world instead of like arrogant !@#@$##?

Social responsibility to me is a concept that isn't only about transparency in business or having to fund culture or charity. It's about behaving well. It's about being accountable. Why would you have to have freebies or handouts or free land to help the world? Helping the world is more about abiding by some simple code of ethics and common-sense customer service principles, that's all.

Over and over again, whether it's bobble-headed baseball or Ben Folds, we're told that there's some monster event that none of us can get near. Only an in-group gets into it. No accommodation is made for spillover or alternatives (the paste-up URL). The "event" -- which isn't an event but a private party -- is hyped to the media like its a form of hugely important and ground-breaking entertainment that will be the Next Big Thing.

But the entertainment of Second Life is in the "your world, your imagination" concept where people come in and build their own social lives and even lives of work and creativity. It's not in mega corporations with hugely deep pockets putting up Hollywood stage sets and having a party for a day.

It's irresponsible to the people who live in Second Life and are looking for viable entertainment and venues to keep creating these red-barred private island sims that hold 45 people merely for quick and easy old-media hits.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Giff-Forseti
October 21, 2006 @ 7:28 pm
     
 
We have often spoken about allowing people across the grid to access the audio or video URL. It is something I usually push for. For this particular event, video was not possible, and audio would have been less compelling.

It has nothing to do with being insular, it has to do with the current state of the technology. You can open the audio/video urls up to everyone. You can also have text chat repeaters that people can place on their land. What you can't do is fit hundreds of people on a sim to interact directly with ben and his avatar, and you can't duplicate/mirror ben and his avatar across hundreds of sims. I still believe that this event, small as it was, was worth having.

If Ben Folds decided to hang out & play one evening in a small club in New York City, would you be this worked up?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 21, 2006 @ 7:46 pm
     
 
"Over and over again, whether it's bobble-headed baseball or Ben Folds, we're told that there's some monster event that none of us can get near. Only an in-group gets into it. No accommodation is made for spillover or alternatives (the paste-up URL). The "event" -- which isn't an event but a private party -- is hyped to the media like its a form of hugely important and ground-breaking entertainment that will be the Next Big Thing."

Ummm... so what?

If companies want to throw a "private party" and announce it across the web but not accomodate everyone, what do I care? What do *you* care?

If it's their intention to have lots of happy fans in attendence, then these private parties aren't going to work, are they? People will be disappointed - both by the technical limitations and by the social restrictions. And if there are disappointed fans, then that is detrimental to the brand, is it not? And if a company chooses to ignore that, then we can expect them to lose favor, yes? And if they don't lose favor, then those particular fans are mindless and not really worth our concern, are they? I don't think so.

Consequently, if it's important to a company to *not* have a "private party" (or even a perception of same), then they'll make the appropriate changes - or not make changes - with consequent results. Either way, it's none of my business. They don't owe me or "the world" an explanation. The only people with any possible right to complaint are the fans. And if you're a fan complaining, then imo you shouldn't be speaking "for the world".
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Giff-Forseti
October 21, 2006 @ 7:57 pm
     
 
I don't disagree with csven, although I don't think we "announced this across the web". There was no giant hype campaign.

One thing continues to be overlooked about the press being generated around SL: it is helping to grow the world, which means more customers for prokofy, and all the small businesses and entrepreneurs in the virtual world.

For all that prokofy previously complained about the aloft project competing with residents (which is does not remotely do), it actually in all likelihood did the reverse.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 21, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
     
 
Giff, you *must* have announced this across the web. And probably in old media too. You must have bc I trust Prok to not blow things all out of proportion. [/sarcasm]
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 21, 2006 @ 10:49 pm
     
 
Forseti,

1) Did Ben Folds play music? Or did he just chill at chat. And if it was only chilling and chatting, well that's ok, it's like a radio or tv talk show, and what, you couldn't paste the URL so that people could listen to the Big People chilling and chatting?

2) If they are having a private party, who could stop them? but they call the media, and not just for the society page coverage but for coverage of the event as if it were the Next Big Thing for new-media digital entertainment and business. But...is it?

3) Forseti, once again, I complained about *your claim* that the aloft campaign would not dent business eventually -- not the campaign itself, which I can only welcome. And you were wrong. Because even if the Starwood people didn't start making little rental rooms for avatars, the next guys to come along, the Pontiac people, *are* going to provide free land and support content developers. Hello?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 21, 2006 @ 11:09 pm
     
 
Don't.

Feed.

The.

Troll.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 22, 2006 @ 12:42 am
     
 
Don't accept the label of "troll" as a way of attempting to silence a legitimate and very much needed debate.

The whole concept of "troll" is a MMORPG forums hangover.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 22, 2006 @ 1:48 am
     
 
Yes, I agree, Prok, the whole concept of a troll IS indeed a MMORPG forums hangover, so why have you brought it with you quite well? Your comments are full of ad hominem, and the 1st week Logic 101 student will tell you that you've invalidated everything you've said.

You're much nicer, well-spoken, and far less harsh in person. And genuinely funny. I'd love to see that side of you come out in the forums. One day, perhaps. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 22, 2006 @ 10:39 am
     
 
Hiro, I know this is one of your fancies, that you can somehow manipulate someone's speech and behaviour by invoking what you imagine to be their "better real world self". But come on, I'd say the same thing in meat-space as on this blog -- and the same thing Tony said at the get-go, in describing the Iron Forge commentary: it's bullshit.

I haven't engaged in ad hominem attacks. I've pointed out that you all are behaving like thin-skinned provincial prima donas forced to go pro too quickly without experience or seasoning or a variety of staff to fit the true needs of these gigs. That's critical commentary, it's not the ad hominem attacks. You may feel you are not these things and it feels like an attack; I think many people looking at the situation would tend to agree with me.

Your response to this sharp but accurate critique is to describe me as bitter and resentful, which always puzzles me. I don't wish to be a Metaversal Myrmidon. I want a Second Life, not a First Life which I already have.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 22, 2006 @ 11:15 am
     
 
Re:

>> I haven't engaged in ad hominem attacks. I've pointed out that you all are behaving like thin-skinned provincial prima donas forced to go pro too quickly without experience or seasoning or a variety of staff to fit the true needs of these gigs. That's critical commentary, it's not the ad hominem attacks. You may feel you are not these things and it feels like an attack; I think many people looking at the situation would tend to agree with me.

LOL That's classic.

While I will never be able to prove my point to you, you've done so well at doing it to everyone else.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
October 22, 2006 @ 11:30 am
     
 
Eegad, I go afk for a day and look what happens :)
Lots of interesting points being raised here (for the most part).

I wanted to zero in on one of Mark's comments for a sec--

"...the type of people who want to attend - and actually do attend - are perhaps well known SL names..."

This really grabbed my attention as worthy of further thought. It's pretty significant if the people most likely to attend an event like this are well-known SLers -- "hardcore" users, if you will. That suggests to me that either the appeal of such an event is limited to hardcore users, or there isn't sufficient awareness among "average" SL users about such events.

In a world with over a million registrants, this short-list of interested parties becomes a smaller needle in a larger haystack, I suspect.

Are these hardcore residents opinion-shapers or influencers? How many of them blogged or otherwise publicly reflected on the event? Is there an advantage to staging events for hardcore, rather than average residents?

If the attendees for these events are recognizable residents, I'm guessing a significant proportion of those hardcore users are also SL developers, content-creators, freelancers. The attendees probably run in the same circles. Is it possible, then, that there's an echo-chamber going on? Are developers like ESC, RRR, and MoU preaching to the choir?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 22, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
     
 
Now you're thinking what I'm thinking, Tony:

"Are these hardcore residents opinion-shapers or influencers?"

More importantly, do they attend or attempt to attend events *not* because they hope to enjoy the event itself, but only to be able to provide some commentary on them? To be able to critique them and offer their first-person(?) account and then use that to bolster their opinions; give them validity?

"Is it possible, then, that there's an echo-chamber going on?"

Valid question. Along with it I'd ask if this is being caused by too much concern for affecting the world dynamic. For example, why doesn't Scion simply post a few vendors across the grid and give away their vehicles virally? They could. And it'd frighten SL's car makers and ring warning bells for every resident business.

I don't know the real reasons why they don't, but I suspect there is some fear of a potential backlash should they do that. No company wants to be guilty of doing what we so often accuse companies like Massive of doing: ruining the "game" with advertisements.

I suspect that RL-SL equilibrium will oscillate for a bit. We'll see the pendulum swing the other way when *everyone* knows about an event and then the grid collapses from a griefer attack timed for that event. And then the RL companies and their consultants will be blamed for that as well.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 22, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
     
 
They aren't events, Tony, they are hypervents, stage-managed launch parties meant to show up in the old media. And yes, it's a hard core of people who were originally Lindens and/or feted and groomed to play just this role of hyping the platform to big companies -- and they naturally attract like to like, using their networks.

And those that go for something more than the one-hit wonder, like General Motors, then just follow the *exact-same* Linden-established model. They offer free land and perks and the cachet of being on the cool GM sim in exchange for projects (sweat equity) and designs that help enhance "car culture". It's exactly what the Lindens did in providing free sims to the top content creators; building contents; developers' awards, etc. etc. (and by the charter accounts with 4096 m2 for life and having the virtually-free accounts and subsidized first land for the early adapters).

There are some apologists for this practice that claim it's like any other software company that has little feted groups of insiders and users that they give their products to, possibly for alpha or beta testing, etc. and then get those people to work for free and "crowdsource" them in exchange for long-term relationships where they steer them to paying commissions eventually.

Well, for one, I don't think the practice is quite as widespread among RL software companies as they claim. Since when does Microsoft provide free housing in exchange for bug-finding?

For two, the software companies in RL that do this aren't also affecting the politics of an entire world by such favouritism -- deciding if p2p goes in and telehubs go out, for example.

I wouldn't mind at all if Scion had billboards and kiosks, where they had to compete with the exact same set of crappy conditions for advertising that we all have to suffer. For example, there are no rules for signboarding so that it goes up in the ugliest possible ways. Contrary to the received wisdom, freedom for signboards anywhere of any size or any type of ugliness doesn't help business, it harms it and leaves it in the hands of extortionists. I'm for rules and regulation of signs so that we can build decent advertising capacity and stop having advertising discredited as eyesores.

There's a hard core of tekkie utopianists in SL that lurch between hating all business and capitalism to saying, ok, business is alright, as long as it is the business of me and my friends and we can keep others out.

Philip Linden has always try to accommodate this tiny but vocal minority of utopianist tekkie early adapters who hate the old style advertising style of Big Business (while they don't seem to mind it if they get metaversal consulting contracts with it lol). He'll say in interviews for the NY Times and such that this concern about over-visibility of ads will never be a problem, because every business will be on their own private island, and no one ever has to look at it or teleport to it if they don't feel like it.

But that's silly, because they invade our eyeballs in the old media if nowhere else, and of course they can buy 6 islands of 666 islands and create visibility in all kinds of ways inworld -- and really affect the ecology of the world, as Urizenus Sklar aptly put it in our public meeting last Friday at the Sutherland Dam.

It's only a matter of time before these big companies with huge PR budgets and "server storage" budgets utterly unconcerned about L$ micropayments can figure out how inworld eyeballs are reached and they reach them.

General Motors has figured out what you need to do to invade this world, as we discussed
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2006/10/the_future_is_p.html

They've copied the Medici-like model of the Lindens by subsidizing top content creators knowing that people will work for free just to get free land and a seat at the table in development and get in on the ground floor with a company doing something cool. The company can then pick and chose which ones they like as mascots for ad campaigns and promotion, and co-opt and GOM those whose products they like -- using the proven Linden method.

There's nothing we can likely do to stop this, short of calling for restrictions or protectionism that would be completely out of place in a free market in a new type of technology. I can't reinforce enough, csven, given all your snarky posts here, that I am not for protectionism, subsidies, socialism, and restrictions on the free market.

Let's not pretend that what these aging rust-industry companies and dinosaur big media companies are doing is a free, democratically accessibly, accountable, truly liberal free market, however. It's oligarchy. Together with Lindens, residents-turned-Lindens, and Lindens-turned-metaversal consultants, they are making very highly filtered groups of prosumers and programmers in the exact same model envisioned in Snowcrash to make *and control* the virtual worlds.

It will be virtually impossible to curb this new form of Darwinistic oligarchic corporativism (which isn't a free market, again) because the people who make the world and control the door to it are setting the paradigm up this way.

What we can do, however, is report on it, and show that it isn't a better world; it may be a worse one.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 22, 2006 @ 2:35 pm
     
 
"There's a hard core of tekkie utopianists in SL that lurch between hating all business and capitalism to saying, ok, business is alright, as long as it is the business of me and my friends and we can keep others out."

Considering what I've read regarding the news of GM's move into SL, it's sound as though you've joined this group about which you're speaking.

"But that's silly, because they invade our eyeballs in the old media if nowhere else..."

If Prokofy existed *in the world* as so often claimed, this would be a non-issue, would it not?

"It's only a matter of time before these big companies with huge PR budgets and "server storage" budgets utterly unconcerned about L$ micropayments can figure out how inworld eyeballs are reached and they reach them."

And what's wrong with this? If that's what the people want, so be it. You don't have your own concept of Utopia you're defending, do you? It sure sounds as if you're protecting something... some personal vision of what's best for everyone. If the corporations make SL so intolerable that the residents leave, so what? At least they *can* leave.

"They've copied the Medici-like model of the Lindens by subsidizing top content creators knowing that people will work for free just to get free land and a seat at the table in development and get in on the ground floor with a company doing something cool."

You won't find me or people like me flocking to them. Those who decide to join them do so of their own free will. So what? Are you suggesting they're too ignorant to understand the bargain being made? If so, aren't you being elitist?

"I can't reinforce enough, csven, given all your snarky posts here, that I am not for protectionism, subsidies, socialism, and restrictions on the free market."

My "snarky" comments don't get many good answers from you Prok. You can claim you're "not for protectionism, subsidies, socialism, and restrictions on the free market", yet you post things that strongly suggest you *are* for these things. You're unlikely to find me starting off a sentence with your words: "I'm for rules and regulation...". The minute someone says they want rules for the things about which you're concerned, I know what they mean is that they want *their* rules and regulations. I prefer that the society self-regulate. I'm not interested in an enforced Utopia which is what you seem to want. I won't ask questions like "What did you do for the world?" because I don't care about the world.

"It's oligarchy."

Who cares what it is? You are free to leave any time you wish. If you truly despise it then you'd do so.

How is it Prok, that you once deridingly called me a socialist but have yourself a much more socialist bent than I will ever have?

In any event, as I'm losing interest in exchanging snarky comments with someone I perceive to be a self-serving socialist with a Utopian agenda, so I'll take my leave.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 22, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
     
 
GM's move into SL has been sherpa'd in not by the Sheep but by Millions of Us. It's Reuben Steiger helping his beta-buddy Francis Chung to give away free land to help 'car culture'. That puts a dent in the inworld land dealing business; it fetes some car makers over others; it copies the Lindens model of always creating a funnelled, hierarchical world driven by top content creation under Darwinistic conditions, and not a democratic world with a genuinely free market.

In RL, signs cannot be put 16m from my waterfront porch; they cannot be put smack on my property line in a residential area. This is how property value is held; this is how business is regulated so as to make business viable. I see nothing protectionist or restrictive about a rule that you can't make 16m2 plots inside prime waterfront to spam up the land with ugly spinning signs and set them to sale for $10,000 Lindens. Please.

Yes, I figured out a long time ago that you don't care about the world -- your neighbourhood, your sim, your Second Life world, the whole world's fate. You just care about csven's career and your clients from RL. It's too bad that this sort of single-minded selfishness isn't the tide raising all boats that you style it as.

The "exit solution" which I've critiqued numerous times on my blog is not viable when there are monopolies now on the Metaverse, and I absolutely refuse to allow the Metaverse to be taken over by a few selfish people with their own agendas, who keep falsely and tendentiously portraying *me* as that type of selfish, greedy person merely because I question authority and speak truth to power.

The only way you seem to have found to discredit me is to call me "socialist" or "utopian" when you betray many of these signs yourself; or at least dine out on their virtuality when selling SL to whomever you sell SL to.

Socialism means having a big state that has certain loyalist companies get the state contracts. That's what we have in Second Life. And you justify that system.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 22, 2006 @ 7:27 pm
     
 
"You just care about csven's career and your clients from RL. It's too bad that this sort of single-minded selfishness isn't the tide raising all boats that you style it as."

For the record: Prok is wrong again (as usual) because I also don't care about my career or my RL clients. I care about my work. Nothing more. Nothing less. If others - clients, acquaintances, strangers - benefit from what I do, that's a secondary issue to me.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 22, 2006 @ 9:06 pm
     
 
>I care about my work. Nothing more. Nothing less. If others - clients, acquaintances, strangers - benefit from what I do, that's a secondary issue to me.

In short, high-minded idealism, nay, tekkie utopianism!
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 22, 2006 @ 10:04 pm
     
 
hahaha

How can people not be amused by you?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Ace Albion
October 23, 2006 @ 8:56 am
     
 
I think I qualify as kind of hardcore about SL. I am in SL every day. I even make some stuff, but I'm not anyone of note, just one of thousands, like most of the people on my friends list who log in every day. My point is that these SLebrities are not *the* super busy super keen SL types and the rest of us just weekend/once a month tourists. OK maybe they are keen to get their avies into a media schmooze event :).

So I don't know much about Ben Folds, so I wouldn't really ask for an invite anyway- not for an ohmigod in the morning time at an event I'd *know* would be a laggy mess. I think the vast majority of residents didn't even know about it (I can bet if I polled my friendlist about 3pointD most would have no idea what it is).

I suppose if the point of the exercise was to score some new media pioneer points and some column inches then mission accomplished. Given that the only thing I've ever heard or seen of Ben Folds is a videotape of Bill Shatner singing Pulp's Common People on YouTube maybe he would have gained another fan with a published audio url for the event. I'm sure there are people who would like to have listened in. I can't see that a wider stream would be a problem in technical detail or expense- SL club owners making monopoly money can afford to stream to 40 people- Sony or their consultants couldn't stream to 400?

Why aren't these events hosted in four sim corners like the welcome areas and King Phil's birthday speech? If the point of the exercise was to actually create an event, and that is a solution, then it should be done that way. If you can't provide that kind of infrastructure in SL for an event, I don't see why you would expect to get business. I think there's an element of playing on the ignorance and naivety of someone going on- either of the RL companies if a genuine event is being touted, or on the rest of us if it really is just meant to be a little party for blog and news site coverage. I don't know why any major (has-been other otherwise) RL musician would settle for less than four sim corners and a world wide stream. Unless they didn't know better.

I don't know why widening the stream has to suddenly involve some website. Prokofy is right- people would make their own event out of it, in this case, with friends etc all doing their own thing and enjoying Ben's music or interviews etc. Listening together, not squinting at some pocket video on blah.com or half listening to winamp.

Honestly, I keep reading about these "events" and it really does read like a lot of enthusiastic schoolkids renting the village hall out. There *are* people hosting live music etc events day in, day out in SL and they seem to manage fine.

I have no axe to grind with anyone, I am just another resi (one of thousands who are in SL daily and rarely raise a voice), this is just what it looks like to me, as I shrug off another basically pointless event. Sorry, but that's how it looks. It will take something more compelling to tear me away from my prims.

Of course with a distributed media url I could listen in while I build, and IM my friends about how cool it is at the same time. Just don't presume on my behalf that I won't feel involved or whatever so there's no need to bother.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 23, 2006 @ 9:10 am
     
 
Honestly, I keep reading about these "events" and it really does read like
a lot of enthusiastic schoolkids renting the village hall out. There *are*
people hosting live music etc events day in, day out in SL and they seem to
manage fine.

Thank you, thank you Ace. I am SO glad to have somebody else stepping up and saying this obvious thing.

This is why I keep saying that the Big Business organizers need to hire inworld DJs or event organizers who have DONE these events and are experienced inworld with them -- but all the posters here keep doing is complaining that I'd be urging them to hire people who have no RL experience, or who are failures because they were subsidized by the Lindens.

And...like being subsidized by Sony or Warners isn't *just like* being subsidized by the Lindens? Helllo?

Ace has also captured what I mean by the freedom of getting the URL -- if these fancy BiG Business organizers can let us pry it loose from their grasping hands. It means I can listen and build or listen and take care of customers. It means I can set up lots of impromptu mini-events or even my four-corners' events for tenants and the general public, and at least amplify that event on one sim to get it a few hundred more listeners.

And what I'm gathering from the thin-skinned neuralgic answers here of the organizers, they don't at all conceive of themselves as putting on an event, in the sense we think it is when someone tells us "Ben Folds is coming to Second Life" or "Kurt Vonnegut is coming to Second Life."

Rather, they think of them as very precious and precocious little avant-garde studios who *only themselves* get to interact with the likes of Ben Fold or Kurt Vonnegut (the fact that Vonnegut is also on a mass-audience national radio doesn't mitigate the problem of failing to gain more than an audience of 40 for him in SL).

And my God, live musicians in SL who aren't the famous ones do this amazingly every night. There are private island owners who cluster together the islands and fill up the sim to 60 or 160 or whatever they need to maximize it at, and it's not especiall laggy, islands like Muse or the Old Salt Pup.

Jaycatt holds concerns on what is something like 8192 m2 on a PG core mainland sim, and fills the sim with 39 and is happy. They do pass out the URL, although I gather from talking to Frogg that they aren't necessarily struggling for some mass audience because they want to retain the sense of a neighbourhood pub and the interactivity with all the regulars.

That specialness of the neighbourhood pub feeling is what the FIC are trying to do with Ben Folds. But Ben Folds is Ben Folds, a big name act who deserves a bigger party. It's like the execs feel they are so worthy for their accomplishments that they should have Ben Folds all to themselves, and they resent anyone even imagining they should be invited. That would be fine if they weren't also using these events to create an impression of SL as this grand place where you will log in and get to mingle with stars every night.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Eric Rice
October 23, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
     
 
The conversation seems to be on the number of people attending, sprinkled with plenty of chatter on the who and the evils and intention and all that.

Couple points.
Even if it was filled to the brim (brim = 100, reasonably 40), does anyone expect this to be a major splash for the labels? I'm guessing not. SL is shiny right now, so this won't be the last.

Another point: I'm comparing this to the Chamillionaire meet-n-greet (Universal, brought in by InWorld Studios), which was kinda awkward and weird. And not clearly explained as such. People thought there was a concert. There wasn't. The used multiple sims and it choked. And were infinitely more Big Music staffers on hand. And almost all newbies, minus some folks from IVM.

Ben Folds interacted with the crowd in *avatar* form, unlike any other major artist I've seen before-- he participated, not preached. That raises the marks. Of course it was a stunt, duh. But when homeboy wants friggin lasers shooting out of his eyes, and then runs the gestures to do so (like all the rest of us), then it means that progress is being made. Little by little. You ever work with a label? These people are impossible, take forever and have fifty-seven levels of approval. God bless 'em for getting half naked. And I'm not really a big Ben Folds fan (until he got Rollins and Shatner to collab)

Second Life's system has a long way to go before massive events work-- even the town halls. 400 people max? In a world with 13,000 concurrent. Please. Stop comparing apples to fuel injectors. We are not there and won't be for a while. Sharing media URLs helps, but when the people around the world can't see the event, context is lost. Anyone been to Juel's naked Tuesdays? Prolly not. Anyone here seen Shadowjack's stage effects? Doubt it. No amount of sharing media URLs is going to change that we are limited in attendance for the 'physical' event.

The only one I couldn't attend was Suzanne Vega, and Kurt Vonneguts was more interesting from the sound of it. No one really wants to take off prims. Lots of different attempts to solve the problem but the core technology is the biggest hurdle.

The listening rooms are the things that have existed the longest and work the best, and Sony's is the first to let people listen and then go buy the music. Spektor doesn't. Talib doesn't (the albums not out yet, so there's hope).

Finally, I was stoked to see that one of SL's native musicians was there (actually two I think). It's important to include this population too, since they succeed each and every night at this kind of thing. They have something to contribute.

And quite frankly, I'd rather hear some commentary and criticisms from Cylindrian or Keiko or Frogg on the issues that REALLY matter-- major label presence in an ocean of indies-- not jealous prattling on about 'oh it's so feted'.

Please, if I have to worry about stuff relating to music, it's going to be about a) if it's a true effort (the CNET and Wired and Reuters people? we'll see them again much more than we'll ever see Ben again. But then, he'd be mobbed all the time. Fame has its price), b) if it's an improvement in the progress the major scene accepting new technologies, c) it can complement existing music culture, d) we can leverage their existence to also direct attention to the indie culture, and d) that the studios learn how to put on events from people who do it and have done it so that these big media plays aren't complete wastes of our time.

How many people can attend? Way low on my list. Because it's broken.

On aside, I'll be on an upcoming SecondCast debating this with Uri. <3
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
October 23, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
     
 
Great post, Eric. Looking forward to the future SecondCast segment, I know you guys will raise some excellent points.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 23, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
     
 
Eric,

We *know* that SL is about 40 or 160 avatars and it won't last, but is there any reason *in hell* why you cannot share the URL of the server??????

Sharing URLs is part of working towards greater visiblity. It's allowing people the freedom to make their own events. Discounting it by saying there is something magical and special about rubbing pixels with that one special guest that just isn't distallable and transferrable is just plain strange -- radio has shows all the time that millions tune into and feel as if they are there.

Obviously SL will draw from TV, radio, Internet, snail-mail, email, IM, chat, etc. traditions already existing for a century in order to make its own thing. But on the way to doing that there is no reason to be in a strait-jacket about it. Share the damn URL.

Nobody wants to take off prims. Yet girls with hoochie hair WERE told to undo their hair, and BDSM with clanking chains and collars and furries with big tails were told it was ok to go around with THEIR attachments. This is just plain silly. For hugely special events like a Vonnegut, geez, you can't just come in a generic skin -- they could even hand them out at the door.

OR SHARE THE DAMN URL DUH.

Um, I'm not "jealous," Spin, I have nothing to be jealous *of*. I'm making a legitimate criticism of a flopped event, something other people declared flopped too.

It is not broken. You are broken for not wanting to fix it a really, really simple way: SHARE THE URL.

Please (adopts the same snotty attitude as your "Please"), if I'm going to bring groups of people I have access to in all my lists to your high and mighty branded stuff to interact with your brands I want more service. Service with a smile. And not aggro and attitude.

There's not going to be any leveraging until you have listeners. Listeners matter. Do you really think you can do this all inside a paper bag?

Indie culture thrives on lots of pubs, home brews. Then that means you have to help this along in SL where there is indeed this capacity by sharing the URL, and having the main players occasionally give a shout out to the people out in URL land.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Illya Sullivan
October 23, 2006 @ 5:19 pm
     
 
I have no axe to grind with anyone, I am just another resi (one of thousands who are in SL daily and rarely raise a voice), this is just what it looks like to me, as I shrug off another basically pointless event. Sorry, but that's how it looks. It will take something more compelling to tear me away from my prims.

I'm another of the great unwashed. I'm in SL probably 3 to 4 hours a day and I agree with Ace here and with most of what she said above.

Judging from the opinions of my friends list I'd say she pretty much hit the nail on the head.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Paula Langset
October 25, 2006 @ 7:49 am
     
 
Still a further resident with no power and voice blah blah. What I think is really dangerous here is how much these people pretending to build events in SL are totally biased towards a majors mentality. They're not building events here, they're preparing their way to cultural domination. This is the reason why they don't mind about listener's number. In fact, that's logical, they don't need to be listened from people outside the relevant list, left alone some invited outsider just in order to keep a politically correct behaviour.

They do things they're content with (no doubt above comments show they are, also in this embarassing case), then they talk about it in their inner circles, do appearances, find agreements, compliment themselves, adjust things, and all of a sudden we'll be told what to listen to in SL, one of the very few places were you can publicly share some genuine indie things these times.

They don’t look for acceptance in SL, they work for acceptance within the majors. They even tell us this, above. So they need to work out things in a way majors executives understand. Audience is the least of their goals. They’re advertising themselves in order to get attention, and subsequently funds, which then will bring to further money-driven developments in-world. They don’t want to adapt to the world, they want the world to be built as near to their (major’s) needs as possible. Any knid of world. Lindens will agree. World is “broken”? They will make it work no doubt.

They got power, and this is the way power works things out. Look at FM radios. I live in Europe so I don't really know how things work there in the US, but I guess it cannot be better than here, and here it's awful disgusting. What I think about major presence in SL? You guess that. To me, it means "I know where this is going to bring", and I see things developing just this way right now, no doubt, very fast. This event, and the way its organisers answered the obvious objections from Prok, ends up being nothing but just a further painful proof of it all.

What puzzled me was Prokofy just insisting with the URL thing (a real valid point, but out of context here), and objecting enraged opponents point to point, apparently not understanding they were talking from a totally different point of view, not caring less about his suggestions on how to make an event more successful from the residents point of view. Maybe he didn’t care, maybe he’s biased towards some kind of major vision, too. I don’t know him well enough to guess. I’d be curious to know his thoughts though.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 25, 2006 @ 9:34 am
     
 
Paula,

I really appreciate your comments. I've been battling the Feted Inner Core mentality here in SL for nearly two years, and just waiting for the world to get bigger and for more and more people to come along and call these people on what they are doing, which is in fact stifling creativity in the name of imposing what I call "creator fascism" which basically says "no business but our business". It would be one thing if it were just an artistic clique, and a merited one; but it often is not merited, and it controls more than culture, it also controls politics and the economy, unlike RL.

I agree that the events all have a concocted and contrived feel calculated to work both as old-media hits and as dazzling new-media confections, which is why I call them hypervents.

Of course they aren't objectively interested in an audience. Reuben Steiger said very flat and baldly in an interview with Johnny Ming a few months ago that the population of SL itself, and the actual attendance at the events were immaterial, because what companies could do now is get media hits for being the first or being in a cool thing doing virtual cool stuff. He can ride this for a good long while, although eventually he'll have competition and people will also figure out how to walk around him and other sherpas.

Since time immemorial, the communications/media/artistic/scientific elite in different countries in different ages has had different relationships to power, sometimes being fed by it and propping it up, sometimes dissenting but always shaping the culture of those outside its circles. This is just how things are and became less so in the modern age with more communication and creativity capacity in technology itself. At one time you had to queue up at the village photographer's shop to get your family portrait; today you spent $15.99 and buy a disposable camera in the drug store and bypass him, though you're still dependent on a major corporation's technology. Technology has freed people more and more from their dependency on guild classes and village craftsmen -- but they'll all back again in full force in Second Life, forcing dependency by invoking the "steep learning curve" of the platform.

I agree that setting music tastes dictated by the Sony or Warner Brothers machines is awful -- these companies all scrambled and weathered the Napster revolution and became even more crabby about their digital rights. SL was supposed to help open that up again by removing the barriers to indie music.

To some extent it has, and I think indie music will continue to thrive even with the Sony-type invasion.

Now, why did I insist on the URL? To call their bluff. I know full well they have absolutely no interest in serving the public, opening up events to the public, making a real community. They want quick results and they don't care how they get it, and from their perspective, they're right to be as rapacious and intense and accelerated as possible during this brief window of "firsts".

I do thin we have to keep calling their bluff, however, as part of forcing them to give back as much as they take by storm and pillage. Pontiac thinks they're going to fix the problem of the "land-grab" by making free land available to content creators -- but all that will do is fete the same old content creators who are already feted -- somebody will get the contract to help Pontiac build and enter the world, then get free land to turn around and give them content. At least people like Francis Chung presumably get paid for the Nissan reproductions in more than free land.

I know they are talking from a "different point of view". But you have to keep pretending that they are in fact part of a community that they pretend to invoke. They invoke the immersionist world to their clients and ride on immersed backs in order to claim that there's this burgeoning world of immersives that companies can sell to in some way.

OK, if these augmentists are going to invoke my immersion, I will make them pay for it by demanding a cut of the URLs at the very least : )
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 25, 2006 @ 8:46 pm
     
 
"What puzzled me was Prokofy just insisting with the URL thing (a real valid point, but out of context here), and objecting enraged opponents point to point, apparently not understanding they were talking from a totally different point of view, not caring less about his suggestions on how to make an event more successful from the residents point of view. Maybe he didn’t care, maybe he’s biased towards some kind of major vision, too. I don’t know him well enough to guess. I’d be curious to know his thoughts though."

I'm unsure if you're referring to me (in bold). Note that I did not disagree with Prok on the points; I was mostly calling out what I perceived as a discrepancy in the basic philosophical position which seems to be at the core of many of Prok's complaints. Because while Prok lumps me in with some "tekkie utopian" crowd, anyone who is aware of my discussions with a few of the web's best known tekkie utopianists knows I very much disagree with much of their thinking on some of today's more relevant issues.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Paula Langset
October 27, 2006 @ 6:36 am
     
 
Damn, so my English is *that* bad..!

No csven, he is Prok in this sentence. Him not caring was one possible explanations for him refusing in my opinion to aknowledge the deep discrepancy between his core point of view and his opponent's, not caring to bring discussion to a further level. He gave me a good explanation for it in his answer however, as you can read. Just for the record.

Then, you not disagreeing with Prok on his points is just your perception I suppose. I don’t know about your discussions with the notorious “tekkie utopians”, then my English unfortunately still prevents me from deeply understand the meaning of this, despite above attempts in explanation. Anyway, I read your answers, and in my opinion your way of being self centered is very different from Prok’s way, although you both undoubtedly are. This blog entry is exausted now however, so I’d call for a stop to this. We’ll have time to discuss about that somewere in the future, I’m sure…
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by HiroPendragon
October 27, 2006 @ 10:13 am
     
 
Okay, I know it's late, but I finally blogged about it. It wasn't easy. :)

http://secondtense.blogspot.com/2006/10/late-post-about-ben-folds-in-sl.html
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 27, 2006 @ 11:45 am
     
 
Paula, I think Prok has many good points. My frequent issue is that some of them are based on assumptions which are then stated as facts - and when called out on those technicalities, Prok refuses to acknowledge them as such. This then leads to another issue: Prok has an unfortunate tendency imo to grossly over-exagerate (which leads to noise that can drown out a valid point). Often those exagerations are born of assumptions carried forward as facts, which are then used to support the "factualization" of yet more assumptions. It's a proverbial snowball going down the hill - only it's not clean. It's this methodology that has led to Prok repeatedly making mistakes regarding - among other things - my own position. I've not waffled in my philosophy. Yet here we have Prok suddenly becoming a protectionist (imo because his business is now the one at risk).

In any event, if you'd like to read some of my discussions with people whom I'd consider candidates for the label "tekkie utopians", feel free to read my exchange with Cory Doctorow (Link) from not too long ago, and my current exchange with Joi Ito (Link - unfortunately my comment from a couple days ago is still unposted so that exchange may have come to an end).
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 27, 2006 @ 12:04 pm
     
 
Hiro attempting to have the last word here actually reveals more about the problem of the insularity of these hypervents. And now that I realize from Second Caste that the *real* issue was that this little precious launch party was held in Sony in New York in *person* with Ben Folds, with Jerry and the gang just goofing around with Ben Folds using their avatars as high-tech toys in REALITY, I'm even further unimpressed. So you goofed around with Ben Folds in real life. Hello? That's not an event in a virtual world, that's you being cool and pretending eevn to be UBER cool that you got to hang with him in RL and be the special folks that show him SL. It's being an insider, and has no public relevance or relevance for the Metaverse as such. That's the problem, writ large.

Paula I honestly can't understand what your issue is, and it has nothing to do with English. You seem to bothered at root by people taking a strong stand and defending it. Um, we're not singing Kumbayah here.

csven, you haven't "called me out" on any technicalities that I was wrong about and "need to admit". That's your constant refrain, but it's hogwash. Show me some techicality I have to admit?

Your constant huffing and puffing about how your own position is reflected is simply not persuasive. You seem to think that if you have highly-technical little insider arguments with other tekkies that none of my critique about the tekkie wiki and its influence is somehow applicable to you. You seem to think if you are "for" capitalism that a critique of socialism and utopianism that also includes some of your behaviour traits has to exempt you and explain and bow a thousand times that you are a "proper capitalist". That's insane. You aren't lol. You're a newfangled technical Darwinistic oligarch that has capitalism of the slash-and-burn type at heart, evidently, if you are obsessed about branding and trade mark violation to the point of haranguing Lindens about it and haranguing other residents about it. Why not let these companies just protect their own brands if they need to?

We all undertand how precious and nuanced your position is,csven, but time and again, you introduce a snarky, tendentious tone in your debates here, make gratuitious and nasty swipes which are also based on incorrect assumptions, and then ask for a pass when people simply fight back. And I'm not the only one, BTW.

I'm recalling your ridiculously tendentious post about Random Unsung, my alt, claiming he was some kind of law-breaker, terrorist, uber-capitalist reflecting evil land baron interests, or whatever the hell it was -- I really need to go back and argue against that sort of hysterical hype point by point. I broke no law. I forced the Lindens to look at their poor enforcement of their own TOS.

I affirm capitalism, the free market, the free flow of ideas, information, goods, services, ideas, cash, etc. across frontiers. I do call for social responsibility however. There's no need to grant a huge pass to big companies with merely their own interests at heart. It's not a free space then if this free flow is controlled by this or that entity.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 27, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
     
 
"It's being an insider, and has no public relevance or relevance for the Metaverse as such. That's the problem, writ large."

But Prok, haven't you been trying to become an insider yourself? Isn't that why you submitted your avatar to LL's PR machine which is what got you that first MSM interview (Fortune Magazine, wasn't it?)?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Behold, Prokofy, who lives *inside* Second Life, tells everyone this repeatedly, yet shows up at RW community gatherings.

Prokofy, who attacks anyone who uses her RL gender in out-of-SL discussions, yet jokes about her RL gender on a well-trafficked blog (Raph Koster's).

"csven, you haven't "called me out" on any technicalities that I was wrong about and "need to admit". That's your constant refrain, but it's hogwash. Show me some techicality I have to admit?

Easy - (Link)

Doesn't get much clearer than saying I used a word that I didn't use.

"You seem to think that if you have highly-technical little insider arguments with other tekkies that none of my critique about the tekkie wiki and its influence is somehow applicable to you."

No. I'm merely providing a reference to show one reason why I have little in common with the stereotype you've created. There are other reasons. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because I understand technology, I prefer it.

"You're a newfangled technical Darwinistic oligarch that has capitalism of the slash-and-burn type at heart, evidently,"

So you no longer believe me to be a socialist, huh? When do you change your mind? hahaha

"if you are obsessed about branding and trade mark violation to the point of haranguing Lindens about it and haranguing other residents about it. Why not let these companies just protect their own brands if they need to?"

I don't care about the companies, Prok. I've already said that and I'm fairly certain you're aware of it. The real reason you're bringing this up is because you don't understand my position. I can only tell you, I can't make synapses connect.

"I'm recalling your ridiculously tendentious post about Random Unsung, my alt, claiming he was some kind of law-breaker, terrorist, uber-capitalist reflecting evil land baron interests, or whatever the hell it was -- I really need to go back and argue against that sort of hysterical hype point by point. I broke no law. I forced the Lindens to look at their poor enforcement of their own TOS."

Wow. You're really mixed up, Prok. What I've said about that alt is far from any of this. Please, find my comment and post it and a link to it here. We could all use a laugh when comparing what I've said to how you've interpreted it.

"I affirm capitalism, the free market, the free flow of ideas, information, goods, services, ideas, cash, etc. across frontiers. I do call for social responsibility however."

Social responsibility? And who defines what is and is not "responsible. Please tell us.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 27, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
     
 
csven, the problem with debates with you is that you're not motivated by discovering the truth, you're motivated by trying to trip up, humiliate, shame, etc. somebody so you begin to sound ridiculous.

But Prok, haven't you been trying to become an insider yourself? Isn't that why you submitted your avatar to LL's PR machine which is what got you that first MSM interview (Fortune Magazine, wasn't it?)?

Huh? How is it being "an insider" by merely responding to a *public* cattle call that the Lindens had *in the open* -- something Cocoanut was struggling to get them to do for months, as well as me and others who were trying to get them to stop steering the same old avatars all the time? It was a test -- and they met it, and I got the interview. As for the Times, LL wasn't involved at all. I have no idea how they found me. They got my email from the Internet, I guess they were reading about SL, and wrote me directly. No insiderism there, hon, sorry to disappoint.

>Pot. Kettle. Black.

People always imagine themselves so clever in saying this, but I'm not a kettle, and not black lol.

Behold, Prokofy, who lives *inside* Second Life, tells everyone this repeatedly, yet shows up at RW community gatherings.

I do indeed live inside SL. And I have indeed shown up at 2 real-life meetings in the last two years. Huh? That undermines your credentials as a worlder lol? I'm not getting this. Why can't you show up at real-life meetings and still live in SL?

Prokofy, who attacks anyone who uses her RL gender in out-of-SL discussions, yet jokes about her RL gender on a well-trafficked blog (Raph Koster's).

Prokofy is he. And I sure do fight anyone attempting to humiliate me by calling me "she" and not respecting my preference in SL -- because the people attacking me are doing this not because they've merely seen me in RL or heard my podcast, but because they wish to try to harass me. That's sick, and intolerant. I've been bullied and harassed in ways that are absolutely outrageous -- in ways that males who chose to transgender are never bullied. Shame on you for joining in the pack. I figure joking about a thing like this at times is all you can do, faced with the outrageous intolerance and venom people show against people who do a simple thing: change their gender (I find men insecure about their own gender-bending are the ones most likely to raise this gender card).

Easy - (Link)

Linke? I'm not seeing one. And this is that old chesnut where you pretend to take a word so literally and in such a narrow obsessive manner that you can't see the obvious forest for the trees. Gosh, csven, use a better example that that one, it only discredits you. Hardly a "clean" example -- it's hallucinatory on your part to say that.

>No. I'm merely providing a reference to show one reason why I have little in common with the stereotype you've created. There are other reasons. Don't make the mistake of assuming that because I understand technology, I prefer it.

Here's the problem with you: you mistakenly grab at some notion that I've created a stereotype of you when I've merely criticized your comments here, and criticized a type called the tekkie wiki. I don't know why the shoe is always barking if it fits, to mix metaphors here.

>So you no longer believe me to be a socialist, huh? When do you change your mind? hahaha

Um, did I call you a socialist? Link please lol? Perhaps you purveyed a socialist idea and were called a socialist in that specific discussion? I know full well that you're not a socialist, duh. What on earth is your real beef here, csven?

>I don't care about the companies, Prok. I've already said that and I'm fairly certain you're aware of it. The real reason you're bringing this up is because you don't understand my position. I can only tell you, I can't make synapses connect.

It doesn't matter if somebody's synapses don't connect and you wish to imply that they are stupider and less intelligent than you -- which you are doing with a dumbass and superior comment like that. You obsessed about companies' brand names being protected over and over and OVER again to the point that it was annoying for everybody. Either you were sherpa'ing around companies or trying to show expertise to clients, it seemd. You then claimed, oh, I'm not doing that. So...it's just a little fetishistic tic on your part? You have no skin in this, so to speak? But who cares? Your obsession with the companies' brand-names put you in the camp of those who want big business to invade SL with little concern for the world.

And bingo -- you said it *exactly in those words*.

"I don't care about the world" and "I care only about my work." Ah, yours is a high and lonely destiny, csven!

>Wow. You're really mixed up, Prok. What I've said about that alt is far from any of this. Please, find my comment and post it and a link to it here. We could all use a laugh when comparing what I've said to how you've interpreted it.

Oh, I'll do better, I will blog a rebuttal line by line so you can eat your words. You tried to use the story of the stand-off in Burns as some kind of slam to discredit me as a "tyrant" and as "wishing the Lindens to bend rules around me" blah blah blah when the transcript of the event itself handily discredits such a spin. I tried to get the Lindens to enforce their own TOS which they refuse to do.

You're the non-socialist caring only about your work -- and your have property. Don't you want property to retain its value?

>Social responsibility? And who defines what is and is not "responsible. Please tell us.

I wouldn't presume to make a pronouncement on social responsibility. Sometimes it's a term that is hijacked by the hard left to just bang on capitalism. Sometimes corporations misuse the term to deceive the public into thinking they care about good practices. That doesn't mean we have to become jaded about its meaning or insist that it have some orthodox definition, that's silly.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 27, 2006 @ 7:38 pm
     
 
"csven, the problem with debates with you is that you're not motivated by discovering the truth, you're motivated by trying to trip up, humiliate, shame, etc."

So this is my motivation now, huh? You've got us all figured out, Prok.

"Huh? How is it being "an insider" by merely responding to a *public* cattle call that the Lindens had *in the open*"

That's only one piece, Prok. You've also managed to get invited to other things allowing you to interact with the Lindens. You can play the role of "outsider" all you want, but from the perspective of the SL masses I suspect you look just as much an insider as all the rest about whom you complain. For all we know, you received preferential treatment during that "cattle call". I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. I'm not attending Linden functions the way you have. So if this insider stuff is so alarming, why aren't the masses complaining? Why is it mostly you... just another insider?

"I do indeed live inside SL. And I have indeed shown up at 2 real-life meetings in the last two years. Huh? That undermines your credentials as a worlder lol? I'm not getting this. Why can't you show up at real-life meetings and still live in SL?

Didn't say you couldn't. However, by identifying yourself you go from living "inside SL" to being ... well ... just like everyone else. I know you don't want to hear that, Prok, since you make such a big deal of "living inside SL", but you don't have any special advantage merely because you make the claim. An avatar that truly lived inside SL would - imo - be anonymous in RL; could attend an event, but wouldn't connect the two.

"And I sure do fight anyone attempting to humiliate me by calling me "she" and not respecting my preference in SL

Only I didn't attempt to humiliate you, Prok. You might have assumed I was, but I wasn't. Guess we'll just chalk this up to another mistaken assumption on your part.

"Shame on you for joining in the pack. I figure joking about a thing like this at times is all you can do, faced with the outrageous intolerance and venom people show against people who do a simple thing: change their gender (I find men insecure about their own gender-bending are the ones most likely to raise this gender card)."

Shame on you for claiming false offense. You belittle the real issues. Had you shown a bit more wisdom and restraint when I innocently referred to your RL gender, and less hypocrisy in your own actions when you're joking with a highly-regarded person in this medium, I'd let it go. Now I won't. I'm not defending those who've attacked you; I'm just telling you that you're also wrong. You can't have it both ways, Prok; not if you're going to leverage it as you do.

"And this is that old chesnut where you pretend to take a word so literally and in such a narrow obsessive manner that you can't see the obvious forest for the trees."

You asked for a technical example, I provided one. But since such obsession is of no account, there a few files on your computer that I'd like to suggest you change - just one letter of their naming. Shouldn't be a big deal, right? It's not even a complete word change.

"Here's the problem with you: you mistakenly grab at some notion that I've created a stereotype of you when I've merely criticized your comments here, and criticized a type called the tekkie wiki. I don't know why the shoe is always barking if it fits, to mix metaphors here.

Actually, you've suggested on several occasions at least that I'm part of this "tekkie wiki" crowd (usually when you're getting all worked up about content creators). You even do it here:

"utopian" when you betray many of these signs yourself; or at least dine out on their virtuality when selling SL to whomever you sell SL to."

But in case you're losing your memory, here's another... oh wait. Whaddaya know, while searching for your "socialist" link (unable to find it, but you can see it mentioned on a NWN post of mine during one of our other sessions) I found this hilarious piece on your blog:

Some of the SIC, such as Satchmo Prototype and Csven Concord, pride themselves on being RL consultants, paid to be the Hermes for the less technologically-inclined or future-savvy bosses and clients, into the myriad passages of virtual worlds.
- Link

Damn that's funny stuff, Prok. And here you said you've never created a stereotype of me! Not only am I a stereotype, I'm a prime example of a stereotypical group. I guess you just managed to forget that little label of yours.

But once again - even though I've told you otherwise on at least two occasions (Link) - you suggest that I'm "selling SL". And once again I can tell you that I have not and am not currently selling SL to anyone. Period. Why is it you can't get this through your head? I've told you before but you absolutely refuse to believe it. Why is that? Do you believe I'm lying? I honestly have no clue why this doesn't register with you.

"Um, did I call you a socialist? Link please lol? Perhaps you purveyed a socialist idea and were called a socialist in that specific discussion? I know full well that you're not a socialist, duh. What on earth is your real beef here, csven?

I did look, but was unable to locate it (I suspect it's right on this blog, but Tony's search leaves much to be desired). As already stated, I did find previous mention of it (just read the comments on NWN; the U.N. protest story - Link). Of course when I find it I will be sure to let you know.

"It doesn't matter if somebody's synapses don't connect and you wish to imply that they are stupider and less intelligent than you -- which you are doing with a dumbass and superior comment like that.

This isn't about intelligence, Prok. Don't assume. This is about you're refusal to hear anything you do not wish to hear. The phrase "I don't care about the companies" is one I've repeated more than a few times. It requires no intelligence to comprehend it. It does require a refusal to acknowledge it. Which is worse, Prok: someone who doesn't know or someone who refuses to know?

"You obsessed about companies' brand names being protected over and over and OVER again to the point that it was annoying for everybody."

Let me point out again that I don't care about "everybody".

"Either you were sherpa'ing around companies or trying to show expertise to clients, it seemd. You then claimed, oh, I'm not doing that. So...it's just a little fetishistic tic on your part? You have no skin in this, so to speak? But who cares? Your obsession with the companies' brand-names put you in the camp of those who want big business to invade SL with little concern for the world."

I see you got that "it seemd" in there at the last minute. You're learning. Only you've missed the most basic part of my argument against trademark infringement. Look it up, Prok. Besides the lost Hotline posts where I call it out, I've mentioned it elsewhere.

"And bingo -- you said it *exactly in those words*.

Prok, I could only "want" big business in SL if I cared. I don't.

""I don't care about the world" and "I care only about my work." Ah, yours is a high and lonely destiny, csven!"

I work best alone. Guess it all works out, huh?

"Oh, I'll do better, I will blog a rebuttal line by line so you can eat your words. You tried to use the story of the stand-off in Burns as some kind of slam to discredit me as a "tyrant" and as "wishing the Lindens to bend rules around me" blah blah blah when the transcript of the event itself handily discredits such a spin. I tried to get the Lindens to enforce their own TOS which they refuse to do."

Uh... stand-off in Burns? Please. Blog a rebuttal. Make it good and long and as verbose as everything else. And please provide links to it at every available opportunity to prove your point. Thank you.

"You're the non-socialist caring only about your work -- and your have property. Don't you want property to retain its value?

No. I don't really care if it retains its value.

"That doesn't mean we have to become jaded about its meaning or insist that it have some orthodox definition, that's silly."

If you can't set guidelines for social responsibility, Prok, just say so.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 27, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
     
 
Wow, that's way too long to read and respond to, and utterly NOT about Ben Folds and now approaching Battle of Who Could Care Less territory!

Perhaps I'll find time to rebut it all on my blog, but let me respond to one canard right away:

"You've also managed to get invited to other
things allowing you to interact with the Lindens."

What?! LOL -- um, links? Photos? *Proof*? What on EARTH are you talking about?

I've never, in my life, real of simulated, ever been invited to a single thing with a Linden that wasn't open to the entire public, published on their open forums, i.e. for "Concierge Customers" or "those interested in voting tools". Ever.

Every single Linden thing I've ever been to has been a public notice, on their forums or blogs or in groups inworld they form anyone can join like "Town Hall Attendees". LOL you need a serious reality check.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 27, 2006 @ 8:30 pm
     
 
"Wow, that's way too long to read and respond to, and utterly NOT about Ben Folds and now approaching Battle of Who Could Care Less territory! Battle of Who Could Care Less territory"

Isn't that the territory you live in, Prok? I've seen plenty of your posts exceed this one by a wide margin. Strange reading "way too long" under your sig.

"What?! LOL -- um, links? Photos? *Proof*? What on EARTH are you talking about?"

I recall seeing some photos of you at some Linden function and by all appearances it was invite-only. I'm getting tired of all the link requests. I've already provided a few. I'd say I have a pretty good track record.

By the way, how's the SIC theory coming? Am I still one of the poster boys?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 27, 2006 @ 10:14 pm
     
 
It was even longer than my always-long posts, csven,

You are recalling one photo of me at SOPIII and SLCC, which were conferences open to the public, which you had to register for, at which Lindens were speakers. State of Play is an industry conference of law professors and game developers, etc. and SL Community Conference is organized by residents (although heavily sponsored and shaped by Lindens). These are not "Linden functions" that are somehow exclusive -- they're open to anyone and publicly announced.

So your memory failed you, you have false memory syndrome csven, there are no other "Linden functions," you are hallucinatory.

God this is easy lol.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 27, 2006 @ 10:52 pm
     
 
No. Not SOPIII/SLCC. Try again.

And what about the SIC? Not going to avoid that are you?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 27, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
     
 
No, you're not a poster boy at all csven, because you haven't really done much in SL? So you just can't count as SIC, sorry!

I don't see why I need to "try again" to find some "Linden function" when there aren't any. I've met the Lindens exactly once in my life in RL: at the SOP and SLCC thing. I haven't been to any other "functions" nor have the Lindens ever invited me anywhere.

You're ridiculous lol.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 28, 2006 @ 12:12 am
     
 
"No, you're not a poster boy at all csven, because you haven't really done much in SL? So you just can't count as SIC, sorry!

No need to apologize. I was surprised to see my name pop up on your blog at all - and especially as an example of your "SIC" conspiracy (or whatever it is you imagine it to be; I didn't bother to read much of it). I'm only sorry I can't provide a link to where I've given you equal credit for ... well ... anything, really. But you are entertaining. Honest. I can't tell you how pleased I was to see your response to that longish post (even though much of it was still your words in quotes, so not as long as a Prok original). I wonder if anyone has pulled a Prok on Prok? Lord knows I've tried for a while!

"I don't see why I need to "try again" to find some "Linden function" when there aren't any. I've met the Lindens exactly once in my life in RL: at the SOP and SLCC thing."

You see, Prok, this is where the light bulb should go on. I never said I was referring to a RL event. You just made that assumption. Why would someone who lives inside Second Life assume I was speaking of a RL function? That's ridiculous.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 28, 2006 @ 12:33 am
     
 
You see, Prok, this is where the light bulb should go on. I never said I was
referring to a RL event. You just made that assumption. Why would someone
who lives inside Second Life assume I was speaking of a RL function? That's
ridiculous.

Wow, is that your concept of being clever and tricky ROFL? You said *picture* and not *screenshot* so I figured you must be talking about a picture taken by the Herald of me next to Philip -- that's what your memory must come from.

As for events inworld, what even would count as "exclusive" Linden function? a group of us asking ourselves, not being invited by Lindens, to petition Philip Linden about a list of concerns? that's not a Linden function. What is a Linden function? A Concierge Ball? I went to one of those more than a year ago, missed the last few -- but that's all people using the concierge list -- thousands now. Is this an "exclusive Linden function"? lol I don't think so.

In fact, I realy don't know what you *mean* by an exclusive Linden function inworld -- I just don't know of any. They don't have such things.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 28, 2006 @ 12:36 am
     
 
>I can't tell you how pleased I was to see your response to that longish post (even though much of it was still your words in quotes, so not as long as a Prok original). I wonder if anyone has pulled a Prok on Prok? Lord knows I've tried for a while!

See, that's what it's about, csven, your infantile little gleeful "gotchas" -- the pathetic things for which you live, instead of for the point of the debate.

Many people out there are golf-clapping as I take *you* on csven, as you haven't out-Prokked Prok at all but merely revealed yourself to be a pompous blowhard LOL. Give it up.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Eric Rice
October 28, 2006 @ 12:41 am
     
 
You guys are STILL here?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 28, 2006 @ 10:01 am
     
 
"See, that's what it's about, csven, your infantile little gleeful "gotchas" -- the pathetic things for which you live, instead of for the point of the debate."

Which is worse Prok: someone like me who admits to the occasional bit of glee over worthless little victories on someone's blog, or someone who is busy constructing conspiracy theories, leveraging baseless accusations, trumpeting overblown exagerations and lumping people into fabricated stereotypes?

I'll admit to my failings, Prok. I have plenty. And yes, I can be a pompous blowhard. But I've found that I become such a person when faced with one. Fight fire with fire, so to speak. Only in this case, I added "long-winded".

Now where is the link to the big blog entry you were going to post about me and Random Unsung? Have that written and posted yet?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 28, 2006 @ 10:04 am
     
 
"You guys are STILL here?"

Yep. I'm here between compiles. I think we're shooting for longest thread again.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
October 28, 2006 @ 10:13 am
     
 
I'm considering locking the thread. Both csven and prok have their own blogs where they can happily punch each other in the balls. I'm all for productive discussion, but I'm pretty sure that line was crossed about 10 comments back.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
October 28, 2006 @ 10:24 am
     
 
Yes, by all means, Tony, lock it! And lock it 10 threads ago if you like lol. It's fine to step in and say "You have your own blogs to go off topic on."
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 28, 2006 @ 10:46 am
     
 
Feel free, Tony. I'm now eagerly awaiting this:

"I will blog a rebuttal line by line so you can eat your words. You tried to use the story of the stand-off in Burns as some kind of slam to discredit me as a "tyrant" and as "wishing the Lindens to bend rules around me" blah blah blah when the transcript of the event itself handily discredits such a spin. I tried to get the Lindens to enforce their own TOS which they refuse to do."

Of course I have absolutely no idea what Prok is talking about, but that big, threatening "eat your words" blog entry should be a hoot.

Link, Prok?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
October 28, 2006 @ 11:25 am
     
 
Oh. I missed one.

"Wow, is that your concept of being clever and tricky ROFL? You said *picture* and not *screenshot* so I figured you must be talking about a picture taken by the Herald of me next to Philip -- that's what your memory must come from."

No. There was no attempt to be clever or tricky. The term "picture" applies to many things. It's a superset. The term "screenshot" is specific and a subset of "picture". You managed to apply the subset's limitation on the superset all by yourself.

"As for events inworld, what even would count as "exclusive" Linden function?"

"exclusive"? In quotes? I didn't use that word, Prok. Here are my words:

"You've also managed to get invited to other things allowing you to interact with the Lindens. You can play the role of "outsider" all you want, but from the perspective of the SL masses I suspect you look just as much an insider as all the rest about whom you complain. For all we know, you received preferential treatment during that "cattle call". I don't know what goes on behind the scenes. I'm not attending Linden functions the way you have."

It may very well have been some customer service thing put on by the Lindens; perhaps the Concierge Ball. But isn't that - to use your word - exclusive to island owners? Could anyone attend, or was that by invite only?

Oh wait. I just found mention of it on your blog (Link).

The Concierge Ball brought together the estate owners,...

Ah. So by your own words you confirm what I recall: you attended a Linden-sponsered event open to estate owners. I assume that you realize that to the unwashed, non-land owning masses there is at least the appearance of "insider" activity. And while I can imagine you rail publicly against this sort of thing, you *do* still attend, do you not? For the good of the people, right? hahaha
 
     
 
     
   
 
 
     
 
     
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