Clickable Culture   Official Research Blog of Phantom Compass
  Big Business Advertising Welcomed To ‘Second Life’  
 
 
Posted 2005-09-29 by Tony Walsh
 
 
     
 
GameDaily.com reprints a Hollywood Reporter story indicating that the virtual world of Second Life is looking for real-world advertisers. Recently, Wells Fargo bought a slice of Second Life to market financial services to teens. David Fleck, VP of Marketing for Second Life's maker Linden Lab told the Reporter that he hopes deals with other brands can be reached by the end of 2005. Additionally, he is open to using avatars as advertisements. Fleck told the Reporter "There is a place for anybody to participate [in Second Life], including big corporations."

While resident-created advertising can be found almost everywhere in Second Life, the Wells Fargo portion of the virtual world is not normally accessible to members of the so-called "Main Grid"--for all purposes, Wells Fargo branding isn't seen by the general population. There are bound to be strong reactions to real-world advertising once it invades the Main Grid, particularly if avatars themselves are used as an ad medium. Community-created ads are one thing. Corporate ads are sure to be another, although arguably such ads are already in-world. Currently there are innumerable corporate IP violations executed by Second Life residents. Linden Lab does little to remove or address such infringements, let alone prevent them. Once big business becomes a way of life in Second Life, I think we'll see pressure on Linden Lab to begin actively policing intellectual property issues. Definitely there will be changes to the Terms of Service to forbid residents from damaging brands. If the future of cyberspace is a corporate theme park, count me out.
 
     
 
   
 
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  19 Comments  
 
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 29, 2005 @ 11:33 pm
     
 
you might want to read the whole series of Hotline posts i directed at LL in June; four iirc. it includes a final, clear position on the two primary IP issues: Trademark and Copyright.

there are also a couple of long threads on the topic of Trademark; both started by residents angry at being forced to observe RL trademark laws. interesting reading perhaps.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 12:22 am
     
 
Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims. There wasn't going to be this branding like in TSO where there was a McDonald's restaurant replica you could put on your lot or a brand computer. This is the first time they've talked about advertising avatars, which is maybe why they introduced this whole concept of being able to chose your own first and last unique SL name -- obviously you're not going to be able to have an avatar advertise if he has to call himself McDonalds Fetid (Fetid is in the latest round of newbie last names). Ah, so now I totally get the energy with which the Lindens were suddenly pushing this free-naming issue -- some residents also wanted to have their RL names as an option to connect up with their RL business.

Of course this opens up what many will see as a creepy concept of mass/collective avatars ala IGE Wheeling run by drones and sweat workers and so on pressed into services in the game. It means that in cyberlaw, in addition to the legal person and the legal corporation you'll need the legal avatar who could be one or many persons.

I wonder if RL corporations will be allowed to be like any other resident outside their sim, however, and buy space on a Metadverse billboard or for that matter in a place like a Ravenglass boardwalk. Is this going to be one of those deals where LL will get the income from selling the sim to Coca Cola but I won't be able to rent to Coca Cola for a billboard outside Coke's bounded sim?

There's a certain terrible allergy to commerce among some in SL -- a hard core of residents hate billboards and anything they see as ugly advertising. There's even an outrageous Hotline to the Lindens urging them to empower a possee of helper-like residents to be able to go into the console of the events listing (currently only managed by Lindens) and be able to at their will and whim, pick out any events listings that they see as "commercial" and "ads in disguise". This, despite our hard-won battle in the Events Working Group to get a category called "commercial" which enables businesses to hold events like real-estate tours, product demonstrations, grand openings of malls, etc. These listings stray over into other things like "art" and "games and contests" and this infuriates the net nannies.

I've often called for the right to have buyable billboard space in the orientation or welcome areas just to end this idiocy where some people are forbidden under pain of banning to advertise or solicit in the WA but other more adept oldbies squirrel their way around the restrictions by friending up newbies and giving them gift bags or walzing them off to clubs and selling them stuff there. Whenever this suggestion comes up, which is like a RL solution to presenting information and services, there's always at least one person who begins to scream about ugly billboards. We'll probably hear all sorts of screams of outrage now about this new development and I'm willing to bet that in their eagerness to try to be all things to all men, the Lindens will end up catering to the big corporations who buy up lots of sims and probably suppressing the ability of SL-branded "immersive world" businesses who just want to advertise in this heavily restricted environment.

The classifieds that the Lindens are going to introduce on to the UI in 1.7 are ok but are merely a long list that can't be read and seen efficiently so there still has to be the issue of how advertising -- a legitimate business activity that need not be the ugly blight everyone fears -- can be accomplished in this world -- given the horrible obstacles thrown up every time people try to enlarge the space for it.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 2:27 am
     
 
Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims.

this is based on what? it doesn't jive with what i've read. please provide a link.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
September 30, 2005 @ 7:36 am
     
 
csven, thanks for the link tips. I get the impression that this announcement by David Fleck represents a shift in policy at Linden Lab--certainly opening up Second Life wide for corporate advertisements is a relatively new development, and avatarvertising is definitely a new thing. I think we need some new Linden statements explaining these new policies, but I suspect they haven't thought the whole thing through just yet.

I think what Prok is getting at might be something I recall either Cory or Philip said this year--something about us not seeing a "Coke Island" any time soon. I don't have any links handy for that. Also, I recall that there was a lot of controversy at one time over resident Fizik Baskerville's Avalon project, which introduced a real-world advertising client to SL.

I'm interested to see if residents will be on the same playing field as Linden Lab when it comes to advertising and bringing in real-life advertisers. I'm also interested to see what measures will be taken towards those who act against real-life brands. A few years ago, I suggested revolt against McDonald's kiosks in TSO.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
September 30, 2005 @ 7:39 am
     
 
Ah, here's that "Coke Island" reference, buried in notes from Cory's June address to the GLS conference on "Second Life and User Creation." This is the same address where he leaked details of the Wells Fargo deal.

From the notes:

"what’s to prevent Coke from dropping $250,000 and taking over SL?

Cory: the community would back out of the world pretty quickly, would create compromising images of Coke that would appear on the web; could set Coke Island on fire; they wouldn’t tolerate this and it would end up hurting Coke in the end"
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 8:06 am
     
 
Re: "this is based on what? it doesn't jive with what i've read. please provide a link."

I find your remark more than curious, Csven, since this clarification about companies only being able to advertise in their own sim *was made in response to your question*
http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=49803&highlight=advertising

"Advertising
There are currently no RL companies who have approached LL to sell or advertise products or services to SL residents. For example, in many video games (think football or racing, for example) you will see signage for RL products that mimic signs you might see in RL. Those signs have often been paid for by the RL company who knows that thousands, maybe millions, of people will play those games and see those ads. There are no such signs or ads in SL."

I know you feel you own this topic and have been very dedicated to it, but I don't see how you can ascribe to the Lindens any position that they are going to allow corporate advertising throughout SL. How? On Governor Linden roads and land throughout SL? But they've made it clear they aren't going to be selling advertising space all over the game, i.e. on their own considerable amount of land (i.e. billboards on the side of the road). Not only this thread, but town halls and explanations by other Lindens have made this clear. Of course they may reverse this policy, but they have articulated it very clear.

What's not clear, as I indicated already in my post, what their posture is going to be if I or another resident sells advertising space on our land to these same corporations. After all, when we talk about "allowing advertising" what we mean is "allowing prims to be placed on land" -- that's all it boils down to. Whoever controls the prim autoreturn should then reasonably be making the policy. The Lindens haves said they will not sell -- or allow -- advertising space throughout the game on their land.

I don't think they're going to be able to reach in and affect residents' "private property" -- given their posture in the past about not doing that, but of course, they can always backdate a new policy.

So now the challenge is for you to find a link that can show that Lindens will be selling ad space on Governor Linden land. They aren't going to be. They are saying they aren't going to allow the companies to advertise throughout SL (i.e. on their Linden land) any more than they allow residents to advertise on their land (look how fast they remove the slightest thing off a Welcome Area or other area when they don't have autoreturn on).
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 9:16 am
     
 
Here's more specifically what they said about corporations *advertising on their own land*:

"Our position with respect to both types of advertising has been that if a RL company wants to buy land, set up a store, and offer products to SL users they can do that. We would not cut a deal with them upfront, and their success would depend on how interested SL residents are in what they have to offer."

Here it's clear that the Lindens are not envisioning a policy of ad placement throughout SL *on property they control* because they are telling corporations to *buy their own land* and sell there.

When TSO put the McDonald's kiosk in the game, it was the laughingstock of the community, not only because of any anti-commerce group (they weren't as evident in TSO as they are in SL) but because the adsters didn't think to make the burgers and ice cream sold out of the kiosk to have higher hunger energy points. So if your sim ate the burgers, they only got like a 2, then had to deal with a hygiene loss as they had to go wash their hands. So having the McDonald kiosk not only took up scarce object space, it didn't satisfy your sim's hunger, kinda like RL. The computer (I can't even remember which brand -- shows you how much branding in a game works) had the misfortune to break down and then have that star-studded brand name with the "broken" tag hovering over the object. EA.com got on that pretty quick and changed the word "broken" to "software update" lol. These computers also didn't give you any sims advantage, i.e. better skilling or other green-up points.

Message for branders: play the game and put your product into the game so that when players interact with it, it enhances their game instead of being a liability. Just placing the product because you have a captive audience only incites anger.

Cory is right that people will burn, dive-bomb, hate, and otherwise act up around any kind of big American brand name because there are a certain number of anti-Americans and haters in SL, particularly from UK, Australia, and Canada. There is also a determined bunch who just hate any kind of advertising/billboards/etc. (unless, of course, in some cases, it's an ad for *their own* business -- that's the hilarious paradox of this crowd). There is also significant expression of actual Old European or Asian or wannabe-Asian sentiments about beauty and symmetry, such that American advertising seems uncontrolled and crass.

Recently, on the Community Round Table discussion list, a resident took the Lindens to task for not providing rent-free sims for non-profit activity. I responded by saying that residents could look to other residents, not Lindens, for low-rent or even rent-free land if they accepted advertising. The response I got from this resident was that such rentals or gifts would involve "all this business crap" and "orgies of advertising". I tried to explain that logos can be incorporated tastefully into an event, it doesn't have to be with particles streaming and boxes spinning.

Here's the exchange I was banned for:

>The last thing I need is to deal with "business" and all the crap that entails.

(Prokofy): "Ugh. This kind of anti-business sentiment so often found in SL representing a small but very vocal minority, often of early adapters, is really a turn-off. Here's LL, a company that invites people to come into SL and do business -- to make money. Then as soon as they arrive, a determined few swoop down on them and rant that they are doing something wrong, or not realizing it's a game and you should have fun, or a host of other criticisms. What is the "crap" this entails? Have you ever actually done it? Scores of events go on constantly with business support, sometimes visible, sometimes not. It's often done very tastefully, and if you work at it, I'm sure you could find something that will not only be the esthetic thing you dream of, but will help a struggling resident-based business and be good for them, too, to be associated with work in the public interest."

This was deemed "inflammatory". Ah, well. I realize that what's likely to happen with any enlarged LL advertising policy that a) the Lindens will get to advertise themselves when and where they want, including with in-game content and things like building contests b) they will pick a select few to advertise in the way they see fit from among their FIC cronies, i.e. through picking them in building contests or throwing deals like Stagecoach to them and c) they will sit back and allow the more anti-business FIC to swoop down on the remainder of residents who wish to advertise on their own land and try to control the whole advertising space that way.

If you find this assessment too rabid, come live in this world the way I do and you'll see.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 9:52 am
     
 
So now the challenge is for you to find a link that can show ...

no. it isn't. you have yet to answer the question i asked of you. your comment:

Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims.

my very simple and non-provocative question:

this is based on what? it doesn't jive with what i've read. please provide a link.

the pattern with you seems to hold. the post you cite did not say that corporations "were only" allowed to advertise on their "own sims". as often appears be the case with you, Prok, this is a comment riddled with error; your interpretation of someone's comments poorly digested, spun and regurgitated back void of accuracy and validity. curiously you cut short the quote you reference (perhaps purposely, perhaps because you were too busy trying to be cute with your unprovoked jabs at me - "I know you feel you own this topic", or perhaps because you really don't have the capacity for analytical thought). THIS is what was said in it's entirety:

There are currently no RL companies who have approached LL to sell or advertise products or services to SL residents. For example, in many video games (think football or racing, for example) you will see signage for RL products that mimic signs you might see in RL. Those signs have often been paid for by the RL company who knows that thousands, maybe millions, of people will play those games and see those ads. There are no such signs or ads in SL.

Similarly, no one has approached or paid LL to advertise RL products in SL and then link to RL websites similar to the Nike option in There.com, as an example.

Our position with respect to both types of advertising has been that if a RL company wants to buy land, set up a store, and offer products to SL users they can do that. We would not cut a deal with them upfront, and their success would depend on how interested SL residents are in what they have to offer.


odd that you quote the first portion, yet when the paragraph begins with "Our position" (that kinda looks like the meat of the quote, doesn't it?), you leave that - the important portion of the answer to my forum post - out of your response. please note the following excerpt from the part you somehow neglected to post:

"if a RL company wants to buy land, set up a store, and offer products to SL users they can do that".

it does not say "sim". it also does not suggest (even if they were forced to buy entire sims) that this would be a sim detached from the main grid.

consequently the comment you made is shown to be incorrect and effectively worthless (you got the June part correct, Prok. congrats on that). and now that i'm aware your comment is baseless, my query is done.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 9:54 am
     
 
i see we've cross-posted (i guess you only got thru the first portion of the Linden response before you felt the urge to write that first worthless response). let's see if you managed to at least catch your mistake...
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 9:58 am
     
 
nope. you still don't correct yourself. all you do is state the obvious without correcting your initial comment. too proud to simply correct an error, Prok?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 10:32 am
     
 
Um, Csven, please, knowing that you'd batter away at this because you feel you own the topic and therefore know more than anybody else about it, I put a second post specifically with that reference about the companies and businesses on their ownland from David Linden, not because I was "correcting an error" but because I'm buttressing my original point.

Let me post it again, Csven, it essentially states the companies will advertise ON THEIR OWN SIMS, your own land IS your own sim:

"Our position with respect to both types of advertising has been that if a RL company wants to buy land, set up a store, and offer products to SL users they can do that. We would not cut a deal with them upfront, and their success would depend on how interested SL residents are in what they have to offer."

There's no error here. What this means is that the Lindens are not planning to cut a deal with Coke to say, come in and get 100,000 meters of billboard space throughout Governor Linden land. They will have their own sim -- the form most businesses enter SL is by buying a private island. Philip himself answered me in the WA that privacy of private islands is something he will continue to uphold -- businesses then may opt to be invisible, precisely to avoid that kind of fire-bombing Tony is talking about. Companies will get that kind of maximum control of their land by buying a private island -- they can't get that control on the mainland. This is just common sense about SL's features and how they work.

At the time the Lindens said this -- in June after the auction changes -- it was and is absolutely correct to say land=sims. Your picking on this point is bizarre. Are you aware that wholesale land now only come in two flavours: 1) a private island for $1250, which comes as a whole sim 2) a whole mainland sim on the auction, whose bid opens at $1000.

That means you can't go on the auction get 4096 or 1024 of new, wholesale land. It's no longer made available. Sometimes some old recycled first land or released land of larger parcels goes up, but this is rare, and higher priced as existing owners in that sim will bid high to get the prims.

What, you're suggesting that Coke or Reebok is going to go throughout SL and buy parcels of land now second-hand from other residents that have been marked up? Of course not. That's why I'm more than confident that saying "land=sims" is what the Lindens meant. That's a given. Any big project has to have a whole sim, if not a whole continent, not a 1024 surrounded by ugly builds on the mainland.

That's why MY question was: ok, but what if a company still wants to rent in a mall? Can they do that? And I bet you the Lindens will have a hard time saying no to that without controlling what they try to sell as "private property" on the mainland, too, but that they'll find some way of caving to the clamouring of the anti-commerce crowd too.

In both cases, it's abundantly clear. I do have the capacity for analytical thought, despite your insulting slams to the contrary, it's just that I analyze *differently* and with a *different outcome* than you do, so in order to debate me, you're trying to belittle and slam me as incorrect and unthinking rather than grasping that the Linden policy has been made clear, and I've cited it accurately.

Land=sim
Advertising=on their own sim
Advertising=not on other people's sims
Advertising=not on Governor Linden land.

The Lindens will not be cutting deals and allowing advertising on Governor Linden land. Such advertising that gets done has to be on the businesses' own sims or own land where they have the right to set their prims.

BTW, I read what you originally posted at least 3 times and couldn't understand why you were posting such a tendentious spin on the answer to your own question which you must be very familiar with. It's not that I read your post and then fired off a response half-cocked. I put the first part of that quote to orient it as the June quote. I figured you'd know it by heart. Then thinking you'd still find something to fuss about, I posted a bolstering of my point, not a correction. Geez.

Honestly, Csven, it's a big topic, and not yours alone, regardless of your much-merited research. I live in this world. I read the forums. I know what Governor Linden land is and the considerable opportunity -- and temptation -- for the Lindens to start carving that up to billboards. It's their right. And they may wind up doing it to pay their bills.

The avatarversing is more creepy, and represents a new departure from their policy.

Csven, let me assure you that not only do I have a college education, have always read far above grade level, and am widely read, I'm not on disability, I don't take or abuse any medications of any kind, I am not mentally ill or challenged, I'm quite capable of intellectual discourse, I haven't been accused of plagiarism in RL (this is a case of Internet witch-hunting and mistaken identity with the wrong RL name) -- and [fill in any number of other personal insults people use to try to win SL arguments against me]. So please, cut out the bullshit. The Lindens have a stated policy. They aren't going to allow big corporations to walk all over SL. They are as tekkiewiki utopian as their hardcore clients. Don't worry. It's going to be fine. In fact your own pet projects are likely to be thwarted unless you are busy buttering up the right Lindens.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 10:40 am
     
 
Re: consequently the comment you made is shown to be incorrect and effectively worthless (you got the June part correct, Prok. congrats on that). and now that i'm aware your comment is baseless, my query is done

So again, Csven, the challenge to YOU is to show where the Lindens have said they will now allow advertising on Governor Linden land by selling billboard space or selling or renting Governor Linden land. Links?

What will they say if Reebox wants to rent out the the combat sims for $8000 LL a day and then outfit Teams Blue and Red with different sneakers? Will they allow that? I don't see how they can stop that. Yet they made it clear in their announcement that they see themselves as controlling the whole SL space which, in keeping with their minority fants, they will keep "billboard free and aesthetic" and businesses will have to advertise *on their own sims* -- on their own land, which in this case, is sims.

Now, what about Hank Ramos, the micro baron, and all those other extortionists holding thousands of meters in little 16m squares they've capped off of publicked land or liquidated land here and there? What if they decide to sell their empire of 16ms to Coke so that Coke can have signs on the 16m signs everywhere? What will the Lindens say about that? There will be a huge uproad about this and I bet you'll they'll put in some sort controls over it. That's exactly my question. They're trying to steer businesses away from the mainland and on to private sims.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 11:40 am
     
 
I put a second post specifically with that reference about the companies and businesses on their ownland from David Linden

what David Linden comment? i only see comments from Robin Linden. perhaps he did a cut and paste. please provide a link to David Linden's comments for everyone's benefit.

it essentially states the companies will advertise ON THEIR OWN SIMS, your own land IS your own sim

At the time the Lindens said this -- in June after the auction changes -- it was and is absolutely correct to say land=sims.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Are you aware that wholesale land now only come in two flavours: 1) a private island for $1250, which comes as a whole sim 2) a whole mainland sim on the auction, whose bid opens at $1000.

are you aware that there's land for sale that isn' 1) a private island or 2) a whole mainland sim? what makes you so sure a company might not just want half of a mainland sim specifically so they could be mixed into the grid in a more integrated fashion? what makes you so sure people aren't out there having discussions that don't fit your expectations of what companies must do? oh wait. you're the bellicose expert, aren't you? if Prok says that when a Linden uses the term "land" it really means "sim", then it must be true (i assume Prok has some privileged inside track to the Lindens, and thus some special understanding of their language, that i, a commoner, do not), right?

Prok, no one but you i'd venture equates owning land to owning a sim. if one owns a sim, by default they own land. the reverse isn't true. i own land, but i do not own a sim. and there is nothing in Robin's comments that suggests a company must buy a whole sim. for all we know, some company is looking to buy dozens of 16m parcels all over the grid and just plunk little ads in place. they'd own lots of little bits of land, but not a single sim. apparently you don't have the imagination to consider that possibility (but then i guess i shouldn't expect you to). so your original comment:

"Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims."

is still screwed up. plain and simple.

What, you're suggesting that Coke or Reebok is going to go throughout SL and buy parcels of land now second-hand from other residents that have been marked up? Of course not.

omg. you mean Coke or Reebok can't afford the huge mark up?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Prok, that is TOO funny. but all the verbage you added after this (which appears on quick scan to be more of the same bullsh*t) likely has no bearing on that one comment of yours which betrays a fundamentally warped logic. all of it is probably just more hand-waving to avoid having to say you made a mistake (what a tremendous ego you must have). you probably spend more time explaining how saying "land" is really "sim"; and how corporations can't do something bc it doesn't make sense to Prok the Magnificent. reading all that is a waste of everyone's time, including mine. consequently, i'll end it now. even i get tired of watching someone flail about as you're doing here.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 1:10 pm
     
 
Um, yeah, Csven, it's *Robin* Linden, my bad, but that's pretty clear by the time we've all quoted it 3 times that it is *Robin* Linden (no doubt in concert with *David* who has likely said the same thing elsewhere -- we can look -- but could you focus on the POINT of the discussion instead of little details like which Linden said what?). Now, was that an important point to prove? Do you feel better inside now that you've pounced on me and pecked at me successfully? Hope so!

Wow, "hahahahahahaha" sounds just like the sort of intellectual discourse I look to when I come to Tony's Clickable *Culture* as in "cultured" but..hmm

Re: "are you aware that there's land for sale that isn' 1) a private island or 2) a whole mainland sim?"

Um, yeah, given that I own more than half a million meters of that stuff myself ROFL -- made up not of whole sims for the most part, but parts of sims, even just 512s.

what makes you so sure a company might not just want half of a mainland sim specifically so they could be mixed into the grid in a more integrated fashion?

Um, I didn't say I was "so sure," that's why I challenged what Robin said. By what Robin said here, and what Philip said in the WA the other night about businesses wanting privacy on private sims, it seems that the trend is to have these businesses go on private islands which are inaccessible and invisible to the rest of the grid. There are many reasons for that, not the least of which these companies don't want to subject themselves to griefers like W-Hat and all the curiosity-seekers I guess.

And this has been EXACTLY my point since word one, before you even came along to SL, in numerous discussions, that most companies are going to want to INTEGRATE and be on the mainland so they can test products and marketing, have walk-ins to their stores, etc. etc. So now that the Lindens have only whole sims for sale, how will they do that? If they are going to close down telehubs and allow only p2p, how will they do that? expect that some companies will buy up as many as 16 mainland sims on the wholesale auction? Well, they might -- although that hasn't been the trend -- and when they do that, they will not have the control over their land that they'd have on a private island set-up.

what makes you so sure people aren't out there having discussions that don't fit your expectations of what companies must do?

Ermm...could it be that I've been in hundreds of these discussions *already* and *already* discussed many times the issue of how businesses will integrate or operate or have access to the mainland lol? That's exactly why I asked the question about the Linden quote -- they conceive of themselves as owning and operating the entire grid, and doling out private islands where they hope these businesses will just be invisible even as they keep paying hefty tier bills, that way they won't have to deal with the business-haters and the commerce-allergenic they've feted and cossetted among the FIC.

But I'm posing the issue of what if someone wants to rent a spot in all my malls and put up DRINK COKE? Can't I let them? What will the Lindens say, given their already declared statements that they want advertising to be on land these companies BOUGHT and which is THEIR SIM which is the form many companies will be engaging in SL in.

Did it ever occur to you in a million years that I might *already have tenants that are businesses* duh, that rent as little as a 512 or as big as a 4096 to do their thing on, so I've *already* been pondering these issues and seeing how they work out.

oh wait. you're the bellicose expert, aren't you? if Prok says that when a Linden uses the term "land" it really means "sim", then it must be true (i assume Prok has some privileged inside track to the Lindens, and thus some special understanding of their language, that i, a commoner, do not), right?

Uh, no, I just go by the trend, which is businesses buy whole sims when they are at the level of a Wells Fargo. They don't come and ask me to sell them a 512 or rent a 10 x 10 spot in my mall. Whatever. I'm sure you have studied the issue far more in-depth, so are not only entitled to swagger, you're entitled to slam others. I just ask questions based on my own experience in the game with land -- which btw is considerable -- and my own observations of how both large business and large non-profits operate, which is not by struggling to do what I do -- take a 1/8 or 1/2 of a sim and attempt to create secure community space there free of griefing, terror-forming, ugly builds, etc.

Um, ha-ha yourself, Csven. Is that how you discuss topics in RL, or are you feeling freer to be nasty and vindictive and playing gotcha merely because it's the anonymous Internet.

Reebok may well be able to go and buy 1/8 or 1/4 or 1/2 of a sim surrounded on all sides by all the other sims owned by other people, sure. They may be able to pay even a 100 percent mark-up. But would they *want to*. You're forgetting the problems of the mainland, which are considerable, and which I could tell you volumes about. You're sitting on some little parcel in Patagonia or whatever, and in fact you may have a false sense of the mainland's problems precisely because I've bought up a lot of Patagonia and struggled to keep it residential and good-lucking, despite encroachment from telehub blight (see, that's what happens when you lobby for telehubs, they don't put the telehub in some rational area like the crossroads a few sims away where road and railroad meet, they put it right smack next to their most beautiful natural-looking sim in the whole continent lol -- I have to believe that wasn't planned).

Reebok isn't going to gamble to buy a Patagonia or a Zephyr in chunks when at any moment, not only a W-Hat could come in and build an oil refinery or nuclear plant next to them, Joe Plywood might just decide that a plywood skyscraper is just the ticket to use up 234 prims on his 1024, or someone could make a big black box, put 40 avs on it 3 times a day, and lag the sim all to hell. I'm thinking most companies who investigate a thing like SL use marketing companies, as Wells Fargo does, and these companies, if they aren't steered into private islands at the get-go by the Lindens (and surely they are) would only have to take one flight through SL to see the mainland is a very mixed bag.

I'm not flailing around, Csven, you're remaining stubborn about being "right" on something that you're just not right about LOL. Land=sim and sim=private island for most businesses. If there are some businesses that will buy on the mainland for various reasons, ie. more fly-by-buys and walk-ins, they will likely take the trouble to buy 4-16 sims so they can control the view. If there are some companies that buy up smaller sections -- or rent them as a number do to keep the flexiblity! -- they will have to fend off the griefing and the ugliness and the other problems we all cope with on the mainland.

To prove your technicality -- that businesses might buy a 4096 on the mainland (is this YOUR RL business or something, is that why you are so energized on this point)-- you're prepared to overlook all these huge looming issues staring you in the face, which are:

a) Lindens steering toward private islands so that the business experience will be a better one, free of griefing and ugliness
b) Lindens saying it's ok if businesses advertise on their own land, but not being willing to allow advertising on Governor Linden land, i.e. in Welcome Areas, and not (evidently) encouraging residents on the mainland or private islands to offer their land for rent or sale to businesses, specifically for advertising (this remains to be seen)
c)the actual behavior of businesses large and small, visible and invisible, which is to chose the private island setup, or in the cases where they do rent or buy on the mainland, to chose remote sims where problems are less likely -- PG is a good option.

So in sum, your claim that I've someone "gotten it all wrong" about this statement ""Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims" -- is completely incorrect itself.

Back in June, the Lindens did indeed state explicitly, in answer to your own query, that businesses would be allowed to advertise on their own land -- and since this was June, when the auctions were changed to wholesale, and there were many new private islands added with more tools for control, the thrust of the meaning was private islands (or possibly mainland whole sims).

They most emphatically are NOT to be allowed on Linden Land, i.e. with billboards in the Welcome Areas or along Linden Roads, which the Lindens would sell as deals. They made it clear they would NOT do that. That opened up the question for me of whether they would attempt to interfere if residents on the mainland wanted to rent them space (or sell them space for that matter) -- what would be their posture? Would they cave to the anti-business clique on the forums and suppress this?

All you've done is taken what's an important an interesting discussion and diverted it down a side alley in which you're trying to prove that I can't muster the intellectual power to envision a company buying parts of sims on the mainland.

Since I spend my whole second life renting or selling parts of sim on the mainland, including to RL businesses and SL businesses, and don't own any private islands, it's a pretty silly gambit to have undertaken on your part.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 1:30 pm
     
 
Let me also specifically address this belligerent comment of yours:

>are you aware that there's land for sale that isn' 1) a private island or 2) a whole mainland sim? what makes you so sure a company might not just want half of a mainland sim specifically so they could be mixed into the grid in a more integrated fashion? what makes you so sure people aren't out there having discussions that don't fit your expectations of what companies must do? oh wait. you're the bellicose expert, aren't you? if Prok says that when a Linden uses the term "land" it really means "sim", then it must be true (i assume Prok has some privileged inside track to the Lindens, and thus some special understanding of their language, that i, a commoner, do not), right?

Csven, you could have avoided exposing yourself as a really ardently nasty and vindictive poster if you had just read what I wrote: Note that in my original post, I said WHOLESALE. I specifically said WHOLESALE (not retail from other residents at a mark-up usually) because most people starting projects who have the resources want to get large pieces of land WHOLESALE, i.e. not only larger than what is usually available on the mainland, which tends not to go much above 8192 in the regular for-sale list (there are bigger chunks but people usually try to arrange deals for them through friends or through the forums). They also want to get it *at the best price*.

Of course, Reebok might want to mix it up with the hoi polloi given their social responsibility profile and buy dirt-cheap snow land in PG and get just a 4096 or even a 2048. Then they'll have to deal with ugliness, griefing, blockage, lag. They may enjoy those challenges. I know I do. But the trend for most businesses is to buy the private islands which give them the greatest control over their land.
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 2:34 pm
     
 
Just thought I'd pop in and make note that I've asked for some clarification from LL on this "land=sim" theory. While it seems odd to me to expect people to read an official response which casually uses the word "land" interchangably with "sim" because an announcement will be made over two weeks later changing some land purchasing rules which somehow changes their meanings... who knows?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 3:46 pm
     
 
Geez, you'll go to any lengths to be right, hmm? But you're wrong lol. Most big businesses want to have SIMS which means private islands. Bet you won't be able to get the Lindens to tell us HOW MANY of these private business islands there are, but we know there are BUNCHES because of the huge jump from 600 to 1000 on the totals, and from looking at the map in the last few months. A huge quantitative jump happened. They aren't telling, however.

Look at the ones that have become public, although they remain private. Instead of pestering the Lindens with this niggling little question that will likely not get answered or will puzzle them, find me some big brand-name businesses um which bought a 8192 m2 parcel on the mainland, and get back to me.

You're not going to find them -- the ones that do rent or buy in this manner aren't big brand names.

Let's go over it again, Csven, regardless of whatever answer you extract out of Lindens which your obsessive pestering (haven't you already pestered them enough and gotten hugely detailed responses, more than most?):

1. Most businesses -- or indeed any large project -- need an ENTIRE SIM for their project. Land=sim.
2. Entire sims are usually only available on the auction as wholesaled whole sims, only rarely available on the mainland from other residents.
3. Private islands give you the most control of your land against griefers and unwanted visitors and also have tools that can manage the land better.
4. Private islands can be invisible -- mainland sims cannot be made invisible, they connect to other sims next to them.
5. There's a major problem of ugliness and griefing on the mainland, therefore most big projects and even a lot of small ones go to private islands or at least buy up whole mainland sims in remoter areas -- but that's rare because of all the advantages of a private island.
6. Philip Linden stressed the equivalence of privacy for private/invisible sims in terms of either individuals, groups, or big businesses -- that high degree of privacy/invisiblity can only be gotten on the private islands.
7. Robin stated that big businesses would be advertising on *their land* but would not be all over SL in any kind of special deal where they'd get to use Governor Linden space. That *presumes* private island sims because MOST do that and that is the TREND and that is the reasonable thing to do.

Sure, what she said admits for an interpretation of any mainland parcel, even of 16m. But that's not what most people, and I'll warrant Robin in this instance, think of when they think of the problem of space management -- people who want control, invisibility, management tools get private islands.

And when I first made this statement, it was in regard to the real issue at hand: will the Lindens open up Governor Linden land (roadsides and wecome areas) to advertising? Answer we've gotten from Lindens so far: no.

Will they allow big name brands to buy or rent mainland parcels, given the horrid allergy and hatred a small, determined core of "early adapters" and other tekkies have toward business? Well...that's my question! If it isn't yours, well, it should be!

Or do you, like the Bobos in Paradise, think your special high-end esthetic branded widget or widgie service or value-add is going to be the acceptable cool thing that will get under the radar of the commerce-allergenic and woo the commerce-shy Lindens? I'll bet you do!

People who want to struggle with the challenge of the mainland with the trade-off of more socializing, etc. do that. Big businesses have not yet manifested that desire to struggle on the mainland. Of course they are likely to in some cases for the sake of intermingling with the masses. I'm thinking an LL Bean, for example, might want to have a store that people can walk into openly. I'm the first one who has been saying that. That's why I think you can't get rid of telehubs and just have all boutiques and p2p.

But that's exactly why I've asked the question of whether or not there will be any moral or legal discouragement of residents who wish to sell or rent advertising space to big companies. THAT IS THE REAL QUESTION. Because I know there will be MORAL outrage and discouragement from Lindens and some residents and that means the legality will remain grey.

As for this business of the land auction coming into effect "over two weeks later" than this June announcement, huh? Are you forgetting that we had warning of this in an official letter from Ryan Linden MONTHS before that? That it was extensively discussed, including at a town hall before it went live? It was well recorded on the forums. Was that before you came? Wow, I think you're really dredging the bottom of the barrel here, Csven, give it up.

In fact, weeks before this answer to your question in June by Robin, weeks before the new land purchasing for whole sims only on the auction, the Lindens had a patch that changed the private island deeding and tool management. This enabled Anshe, Hiro and others to buy up a lot of private islands because it was now possible to deed parcels on them to other people while still retaining sole ownership. This revolutionized rentals and private island management. The price of them later went up. Businesses have always tended to be on private islands, and having the deeding function is a boon to them too.

Csven, once we scrape away all your insults of me, your one-upmanship, your desire to be right, your corrections on little techicalities which in fact are invalid -- what do we have? We have you telling us that the Lindens should be more careful about trade mark rights, and the Lindens should enable businesses to come in and rent or buy any kind of land or island and have the right to advertise and the right to use their trademark without it being copied, etc. Who disagrees? I certainly don't. Does anybody? Not that I can see. So what on earth is your point here?
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by csven
September 30, 2005 @ 7:27 pm
     
 
i have time, so let's weed through Prok's Droppings:

Um, yeah, Csven, it's *Robin* Linden...

the reason i asked for a link is precisely because of what you then say ->

no doubt in concert with *David* who has likely said the same thing elsewhere

gee. "likely said the same thing." that's kinda what i was getting at by saying "perhaps he did a cut and paste." i wanted to ensure we were referencing the same thing.

Now, was that an important point to prove? Do you feel better inside now that you've pounced on me and pecked at me successfully? Hope so!

now don't you feel stupid? if not, i think people who are reading this are probably thinking you should.

-

Wow, "hahahahahahaha" sounds just like the sort of intellectual discourse I look to when I come to Tony's Clickable *Culture* as in "cultured" but..hmm

would that be "cultured" as in responding to simple, non-insulting, non-provocative queries with comments like "I know you feel you own this topic", or attempts to call me and others "fanboy"'s or other derogatory terms? in every exchange we've had on this site, Prok, you have always initiated the name-calling and the "cultured" insults. if i'm not dressing it up sufficiently to make this all seem like something it isn't - and which you now seem to want to take pains to dress up so that it appears more dignified - then that's just too bad.

-

me: what makes you so sure a company might not just want half of a mainland sim specifically so they could be mixed into the grid in a more integrated fashion?

Prok: Um, I didn't say I was "so sure,"

i didn't quote those words from you, Prok. it's the "of course not" that kinda suggests you are sure. here's what you said:

What, you're suggesting that Coke or Reebok is going to go throughout SL and buy parcels of land now second-hand from other residents that have been marked up? Of course not.

"Of course not". hmmmm. it's not "of course sometimes" or "possibly not". no, it's an absolute "Of course not"!. like so many other absolutes in your posts. there's no room for exception. but then when Prok dictates, there can be no dissent, can there?!?

sorry Prok, you're pretty clearly saying here that the generic corporation (represented here by Coke or Reebok), will absolutely, positively NOT ever ever ever consider buying half a sim. and i can say without doubt through my own efforts that you are mistaken.

-

me: what makes you so sure people aren't out there having discussions that don't fit your expectations of what companies must do?

Prok: Ermm...could it be that I've been in hundreds of these discussions *already* and *already* discussed many times the issue of how businesses will integrate or operate or have access to the mainland lol?

discussions with whom? the dog? well then, alllll those hundreds of enlightened discussions are worthless, since this is exactly what i've been doing. check the Hotline for one of my queries on the paperwork required to satisfy LL's Trademark policy. my discussions aren't following your grand plan, comrade.

-

What will the Lindens say, given their already declared statements that they want advertising to be on land these companies BOUGHT and which is THEIR SIM which is the form many companies will be engaging in SL in.

"which is THEIR SIM"? are you still trying to save face on making a simple slip? or is this another attempt to backpeddle?

-

Did it ever occur to you in a million years that I might *already have tenants that are businesses* duh, that rent as little as a 512 or as big as a 4096 to do their thing on, so I've *already* been pondering these issues and seeing how they work out.

i'm not quite a million, Prok. but do dogs ponder what it might be like to fly?

-

Uh, no, I just go by the trend,

which apparently equates to dictating absolute rules of behavior.

-

so are not only entitled to swagger, you're entitled to slam others.

i believe i'm entitled to defend myself against dictatorial bullies who launch petty attacks without provocation.

-

Is that how you discuss topics in RL, or are you feeling freer to be nasty and vindictive and playing gotcha merely because it's the anonymous Internet.

as you should be well aware, i'm not anonymous. my real name and website are out in the open. even my avatar name is my real name "C. Sven". there's been news that includes my real name and my avatar name. so considering you've posted on sites that have my complete real name out in the open, exactly what is the point in this comment when you know (or should know) that i'm anything but anonymous?

in contrast, let me ask you: what is your real name? you seem eager to initiate the insults. perhaps that's because you're the one who is anonymous? if that's not true, then where can i find your full name online... out in the open? surely you're not anonymous given this comment of yours. there must be some reason you feel free to spew venom at the drop of a hat (or simple question).

-

uh-oh. here come more backtrack comments. the CYA stuff.

Reebok may...buy 1/8 or 1/4 or 1/2 of a sim... They may be able to pay even a 100 percent mark-up.

-

You're forgetting the problems of the mainland,

i am? and this forgetfulness is based on what, exactly? and should i point to the post i entered on my blog about a week ago entitled "Protected (Cyber)Spaces" to show you how you're once again mistaken? or how an earlier post on virtual weapons was picked up on some legal websites? and do those examples even matter, since what you're claiming to know is what's in my mind; what i'm not thinking? sure. well, if YOU say i'm forgetting... it must be so, comrade. you have all the answers. </sarcasm>

You're sitting on some little parcel in Patagonia or whatever, and in fact you may have a false sense of the mainland's problems precisely because I've bought up a lot of Patagonia and struggled to keep it residential and good-lucking, despite

now this is interesting. i recall how livid you got when people suggested that the story of Chinese workers in SL might be real. you virtually had a hissy fit and went on and on (as usual) that we couldn't know anything about anyone. yet here you seem to claim to know me. what i'm thinking(!). how much land i have and where it is (or has been. or have been for multiple exchanges). but the truth is you don't know anything about what i think or what i do in SL. not how much land this avatar has, or even potentially how much land an alt might have. or where it might have land. or several alts! so you know basically nothing, Prok. don't let stupidity and poor assumptions guide what are apparently already flawed thinking processes.

-

Reebok isn't going to...

you work for Reebok? have you ever even worked inside the marketing group of a corporation?

i have.

have you ever consulted to the marketing group of a corporation?

i have. i've done more than design their products, Prok, i've planned client line strategies. so i'm at least in some position to reflect on what a corporate marketing group might or might not consider. but even with my experience i don't claim to know absolutely what a company will or will not do.

so, Prok, please explain how you have experience beyond TSO and SL (and whatever other online worlds) that makes your comments on what a RL corporation is or "isn't going to" do valid.

-

I'm not flailing around, Csven, you're remaining stubborn about being "right" on something that you're just not right about LOL.

all i did was ask a question, Prok. you immediately launched into a spewfest which, btw, contained additional inaccuracies. guess it's lonely outside the SL forums, huh?

-

and here you backpeddle some more (i should be counting these):

Land=sim and sim=private island for most businesses.

wow. Prok is now adding "most". imagine that.

-

you're prepared to overlook all these huge looming issues

i'm not overlooking anything that you list. you're just making more poor assumptions about what i'm thinking and then detemining it Must Be So.

-

So in sum, your claim that I've someone "gotten it all wrong" about this statement ""Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims" -- is completely incorrect itself.

in sum, you're still trying desperately to make the "land=sim" thing work out for you. you couldn't just say it was a slip, so you're now concocting a whole spin-spewfest of an excuse (but hiding corrections inside as you go along... sneaky sneaky Proki-boy). i've never seen anyone build up such mountains of verbal garbage to mask a simple, understandable mistake.

-

Back in June, the Lindens did indeed state explicitly, in answer to your own query, that businesses would be allowed to advertise on their own land -- and since this was June, when the auctions were changed to wholesale, and there were many new private islands added with more tools for control, the thrust of the meaning was private islands (or possibly mainland whole sims).

the problem with this attempt at an excuse for your error is that the Linden response is dated over two weeks prior to the official notice of the land sale changes. so while the Lindens might have made a gaff, that's unlikely. after all, they're addressing the resident population in the Hotline, and those changes were yet to be officially implemented. so the "thrust of the meaning" that you want to dictate simply doesn't pass muster. not i, nor anyone else outside LL could have taken it at that time to mean anything like what you now wish to claim. and even today, your "land=sim" equation is still incorrect.

-

They most emphatically are NOT to be allowed on Linden Land,...

uhhhh... what are you droning on about in this portion of your spewfest? this has nothing to do with the original question regarding companies buying land. oh. i forgot. it's more chaff to obscure the issue. but if it isn't, then try to separate it out; you're posts are a legibility disaster.

-

All you've done is taken what's an important an interesting discussion and diverted it down a side alley in which you're trying to prove that I can't muster the intellectual power to envision a company buying parts of sims on the mainland.

all i wanted was a simple answer to a question. unfortunately, we got what most everyone expects out of you - a spewfest.

-

Since I spend my whole second life renting or selling parts of sim on the mainland, including to RL businesses and SL businesses, and don't own any private islands, it's a pretty silly gambit to have undertaken on your part.

ah. this is the one-upmanship part, isn't it? hahaha. now if only you can show that you have any experience with RW company marketing groups. right now, you're just a virtual landlord afaik.

-

Csven, you could have avoided exposing yourself as a really ardently nasty and vindictive poster if you had just read what I wrote: Note that in my original post, I said WHOLESALE.

actually, if you do a Search on this site, "wholesale" does not appear in your "original post". it turns up long after. but even then, it doesn't matter. this is what you posted when you first used the term (comes up under Find on this site):

Are you aware that wholesale land now only come in two flavours: 1) a private island for $1250, which comes as a whole sim 2) a whole mainland sim on the auction, whose bid opens at $1000.

those are all questions lacking the proper grammatical syntax (and are also underhanded suggestions i'm unaware of how land is handled in SL; an attempt to suggest i'm ignorant when Prok is all-knowing). but look, i'm also only asking a question... but with the syntax:

are you aware that there's land for sale that isn' 1) a private island or 2) a whole mainland sim?

wow. that exposes me as a "nasty and vindictive poster"? really? hahahaha. that's hilarious. ask a question similar to how a question is asked of you -> be labeled a nasty, vindictive poster. hmmmm. so how do you label yourself seeing as how you initiated the question? is this like a vampire thing and you're the most evil-primeval source of the blood-sucking line?

-

oh look. and buried inside that bit of righteous indignation is another Prok backpeddle:

Of course, Reebok might want to mix it up...

i hope you have a rear-view mirror, Prok. you could be heading for a cliff!

-

Geez, you'll go to any lengths to be right, hmm?

considering the confusion (and your backpeddling), i thought it best to just get it from the source so i posted the question (one of two actually). is there an issue with determining the truth, Prok?

-

But you're wrong lol.

the dictator speaks. or the first vampire. or something. would you be any relation to.... naw. forget it.

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Most big businesses want to have SIMS which means private islands.

"Most"? early on you were saying "Of course not" at the suggestion there would be any exceptions to your rule! this is becoming waffle-city, Prok. one minute you lay down the law and the next there are exceptions. wtf?

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Let's go over it again, Csven, regardless of whatever answer you extract out of Lindens which your obsessive pestering (haven't you already pestered them enough and gotten hugely detailed responses, more than most?)

translation: Prok is afraid of being proven wrong so he's going to minimize the damage by downplaying this now. hahaha

-

1. Most businesses -- or indeed any large project -- need an ENTIRE SIM for their project. Land=sim.

"need"??? wrong. in fact, i'd written a post for the forum (in answer to blaze's "30 to a sim" post in the "RL ads in SL" thread) but the forum locked up on submitting (i think - it might have posted). if it has, you can read my comment there which addresses this. if you can't, oh well. in either case, you've shown yourself to be a dinosaur in my eyes. funny. for someone who claims to exist in the virtual world, you reveal your thinking to me to be firmly planted in the real one. you're reminding me now of some of the marketing people with whom i've spoken. they don't get it either.

-

7. Robin stated that big businesses would be advertising on *their land* but would not be all over SL in any kind of special deal where they'd get to use Governor Linden space. That *presumes* private island sims because MOST do that and that is the TREND and that is the reasonable thing to do.

another backpeddle. of course it's the last one on the list of 7. gotta sneak these in, i guess.

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Sure, what she said admits for an interpretation of any mainland parcel, even of 16m. But that's not what most people, and I'll warrant Robin in this instance, think of when they think of...

more backpeddling.

-

now here's an attempt to completely run away from what's been claimed and defended in Prok's spewfest:

And when I first made this statement, it was in regard to the real issue at hand: will the Lindens open up Governor Linden land (roadsides and wecome areas) to advertising?

well, for being the "real issue" it sure got second-billing in that first post. from this first line:

Back in June, the Lindens made it clear that big corporations (or any corporations) were only going to be allowed to advertise on their own sims.

to this line

I wonder if RL corporations will be allowed to be like any other resident outside their sim, however, and buy space on a Metadverse billboard or

(which basically constitutes the first half of the initial post), there's hardly any mention of opening up Linden land for corporate advertising. you talk more about corporate land rights and advertising avatars. so if this is the "real issue at hand", i'd suggest you work on your posting technique. afaic, you buried this so-called "real issue" in the beginning.

-

oh look. and after getting wound up (i bet all that backpeddling contributes to this), here's more spewfest:

Or do you, like the Bobos in Paradise, think your special high-end esthetic branded widget or widgie service or value-add is going to be the acceptable cool thing that will get under the radar of the commerce-allergenic and woo the commerce-shy Lindens? I'll bet you do!

huh? i think this is based on more incorrect assumptions of what i'm intending to do. i wonder, can i and the "Bobos in Paradise" get a group hug from Prok, the one who dictates like Stalin in Paradise? i sense a Great Purge spewfest coming on....

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whoops. i'm wrong. more backpeddling:

Of course they are likely to in some cases for the sake of intermingling with the masses. I'm thinking an LL Bean, for example, might want to have a store that people can walk into openly.

and then into the self-congratulatory, "i'm one-up over all youse" kinda stuff:

I'm the first one who has been saying that.

i just want to know if this is documented somewhere. anyone have a link to some documention? just curiuos.

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As for this business of the land auction coming into effect "over two weeks later" than this June announcement, huh? Are you forgetting that we had warning of this in an official letter from Ryan Linden MONTHS before that?

yes, we had a warning of changes to come. so what? it doesn't change anyone's terminology when it's some announcement of what's coming on the horizon. no one is rewriting Webster for these things, even when they're discussed and debated on the forum. most people wait to see the real thing before they start changing word definitions; especially when applied to official Linden Lab responses in the Hotline, Prok.

but even so - even with today's land system - your claiming that Robin's response is intended to be read as "sim" vice "land" remains to be seen. that's why i posted the question. let's simply see her answer.

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So what on earth is your point here?

my post was question, Prok. remember, it was you who launched into the "all points belong to me" dictation.

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well, this was interesting. i just wasted some time and now i'm going to let Prok come back and waste even MORE time ranting and dictating and whatever else Prok thinks up in that dictatorial mind of his. it's unfortunate Prok can't post something without some kind of unprovoked insult aimed at others in the vicinity, but then some people are just like that i guess. and i confess to sometimes enjoying feeding it back to them.

have a nice day, Prok :)
 
     
 
     
   
 
Comment posted by Prokofy Neva
September 30, 2005 @ 8:38 pm
     
 
CLOSED BY ORDER OF METAVERSE BOARD OF HEALTH TO CONTAIN SL FORUMS DISEASE. PLEASE TAKE ALL DECONTAMINATION PRECAUTIONS AND HAVE A NICE DAY.
 
     
 
     
   
 
 
     
 
     
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Dinozoiks wrote:
Wow! Thanks for that Tony. Just posted a bunch of other tips here... http://www.dino.co.uk/labs/2008/45-tips-when-designing-online-content-for-kids/ Hope it helps someone... Dino...
in Dino Burbidge's '10 Things To Remember When Designing For Kids Online'


yes, many of the free little games are crappy. but as an artist who has recently published free content on the itunes app store,…
in Free iPhone Games Are Awful: Strategy?


I vote for popup radial menus. Highlight a bit of text, the push and hold, Sims-style radial menu pops up with Copy, Paste, etc....
in More iPhone Gestures, Please


Hey Tony! A client of mine is looking to hire an internal Flash game dev team to build at a really cool Flash CCG…
in Dipping Into Toronto's Flash Pool


Yeah, there's a lot of weird common sense things I've noticed they've just omitted from the design. No idea why though....
in More iPhone Gestures, Please


It also bears noting there's no mechanism right now for a developer to offer a free trial for the iPhone; the App Store isn't…
in Free iPhone Games Are Awful: Strategy?


@GeorgeR: It's on my shopping list :) I've heard good things about it as well. And Cro Mag Rally. @andrhia: meh, I don't know…
in Free iPhone Games Are Awful: Strategy?


...you get what you pay for, you know? I actually bought Trism based on early buzz, and it's truly a novel mechanic. I've been…
in Free iPhone Games Are Awful: Strategy?


The only one I've heard good things about is Super Monkey Ball. Have you given that a whirl yet?...
in Free iPhone Games Are Awful: Strategy?


Advance warning: this frivolent comment is NOT RELATED or even worth your time ... But whenever i hear "Collada", i think of that SCTV…
in Electric Sheep Builds Its Own Flock


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