Have they finally actually turned over the names? So far all I've read are two comments - one from late November and this recent one - saying what they were going to do.

What's been particularly fascinating to me are the parallels I'm starting to hear... I remember early on, I heard someone say Second Life was like the Matrix without the evil robots. (Was it a Linden?)

Besides that, I can visualize some of the Lindens inworld being like benevolent Agents of the Matrix, jumping from body to body and chokeslamming greefer kin (figuratively).

Maybe there's an AI core deep in there somewhere, and like Gaia, it's starting to feel immense pain, and will eventually lash out to protect itself—

This quotation that the Herald ran from Philip says the following:

"Asked by a reporter to clarify what kind of prosecution he might seek, Linden said, “Yes, we will turn over data to the FBI. That is what we are doing. Already in progress."

He says "ALREADY IN PROGRESS". That should answer your question.

Why?

When some people say they "will mow the lawn" and that their effort is "already in progress", what they really mean is that the football game only has two quarters left. After the game, they'll have dinner. Then if they have time they'll put gas in mower. Then the next game is on. And during halftime, if there isn't a good show to watch, they'll check the oil. But then it'll be dark outside and they have to work the next day, so they'll continue the following weekend. aso and so forth.

Already in progress effectively means nothing to me, so it answers nothing (aren't the Lindens "already in progress" trying to amend the ToS to deal with those signs? and how long will that take???). When I hear directly from LL that they have turned over the information (past tense), then I'll take this news seriously.

This is a good exhibit of your literal-mindedness again Csven. Philip is quoted as saying he is ALREADY IN PROGRESS turning over names -- turning them over. What part of that isn't clear? It means ALREADY TURNING THEM OVER.

It's like you're trying to find some little quibble or cavil to wish it not so. Too late. He is already turning them over. We all *have* heard directly from LL: Philip said this at a winter holiday party where it was witnessed by all the avatars present.

I'm thinking that even if the Herald went and checked with Philip to see if he was DONE faxing the list of names over to the feds, and even if the case was opened based on LL's complaint, it would still not be enough for Csven.

Being accurate and literal ensures that there are fewer misunderstandings (I should become a translator perhaps, since apparently there is a real need in that market for people with "literal-mindedness"). Please recall that Ginsu also said as much in November which led people to assuming that names for that attack we're being forwarded to the authorities at that time (yet here we are with another First). Perhaps you're comfortable making assumptions on vague comments that are (as Wolfowitz once said) "technically correct". I'm not. As an example, those who gloss over details (deliberately or otherwise) and sneer at those who quibble, have taken America to war based on just such inaccuracies... and since admitted their mistake. To each their own. If you're comfortable making assumptions and treating those as facts and then having to justify your many mistakes, that's your business.

So as stated, I'll wait for words like "names HAVE been turned over" to believe it's actually happened. That shouldn't be so much to ask and should certainly not warrant the comments already made.

Now, since I'm the one of the two others on this thread besides yourself who's asked a question, I'll assume that you're addressing me directly when you say, "That should answer your question". So once again you're engaging me directly. Should we make note of this so that when you later cry about my responses to your illogical comments, we can establish who (once again) is the initiator in this exchange?

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"You said "objects" and that means "objects."

"stuff" != "object". The word "object" is defined both by your InSaNE Lexicon and the LSL Wiki. "Stuff" is not.

There was nothing in Ginsu's comments then construed to say that they *already had* or *were in the process of*. What he said was that they *would* -- in a general, policy sort of way. That they would adopt a posture of turning over the names of people who created DNS attacks to the authorities. Now they are. You can't wish that away.

Being accurate and literal often ensures that you miss the meaning when you are not only translating, but reporting.

Yes, indeed, a statement that ALREADY IN PROCESS has been said is indeed addressed to you.

And yes, I do understand the difference between "Nightline" and "Saturday Night Live" and always have.

BTW you said "stuff for sale". "Stuff for sale" means objects. Anyway, many of the telehubs didn't lag as you insist so it's moot lol.

There was nothing in Ginsu's comments then construed to say that they *already had* or *were in the process of*. What he said was that they *would* -- in a general, policy sort of way. That they would adopt a posture of turning over the names of people who created DNS attacks to the authorities.

"in a general, policy sort of way"???

Funny. Then why say the following:

Please note that personal and account information of these individuals will be disclosed to appropriate law enforcement agencies for further investigation, including U.S. state and federal authorities and agencies in applicable international jurisdictions

????????

Doesn't sound too general to me, Prok. Nor does it sound like it's a policy statement; it's quite specific. Perhaps you could use a few million mg of "literal-mindedness" since it's obvious to me you're twisting someone's words and assigning unintended meaning to them.

Being accurate and literal often ensures that you miss the meaning when you are not only translating, but reporting.

Given your pathetic record (as evidenced in this one example as well as numerous others), how the hell would you know???

Yes, indeed, a statement that ALREADY IN PROCESS has been said is indeed addressed to you.

I was refering to the comment I've already quoted. Nothing more. Just don't cry later, Prok. You've once again initiated an exchange (lonely without the forum, huh?).

And yes, I do understand the difference between "Nightline" and "Saturday Night Live" and always have.

So by that did you then mean that Dan Akroyd and Jane Curtain were actually performers on "Nightline" (given that you linked them on the other thread)??? Or was that just another mistake. Thank you for being honest... you ignorant Koppel. {< Hint}

BTW you said "stuff for sale". "Stuff for sale" means objects. Anyway, many of the telehubs didn't lag as you insist so it's moot lol.

Wrong. "Stuff" means stuff. You made a statement that was incorrect:

"You said "objects" and that means "objects.

and then tried to back off from it by avoiding an answer and skirting around it every chance you could; very corrupt-political-like.

Objects means, per both your earlier description and the LSL wiki, prims and linked prims. People can sell sounds, images, animations and even scripts, and none of those would be - within the "SL Lexicon" - described as "objects". Because of that definition, I used "stuff" to be more inclusive; to include those other things. Being InSaNE, that distinction obviously passed you by, leading to your last attempt to ram your arrogance down someone's throat.

LSL Wiki definition: "An object is an instance of geometry in SecondLife that can consist of a just a single primitive or multiple prims linked together." - http://secondlife.com/badgeo/wakka.php?wakka=Object

Csven, you inhabite some universe of non-comprehension that I don't know how to reach.

When a company makes a statement like this:

"Please note that personal and account information of these individuals will be disclosed to appropriate law enforcement agencies for further investigation, including U.S. state and federal authorities and agencies in applicable international jurisdictions"

That means that in general, those individuals who commit this offense, will be disciplined. It means those individuals who we will find to be in violation will be turned over -- to make it clear it has consequences. It did not mean that at that time, they claimed they were turning over any certain people.

On the Nightline thing Csven, I merely mistyped "Nightline" when I mean to type "Night Live" -- obviously everyone knows that Ted Koppel doesn't cry "Jane you ignorant bitch," Dan Akyrod on SNL cries it.

You said objects, because you said "stuff that people sell," and stuff that people sell ARE objects. To keep jamming on the literal appearance of a word, and not zoom out a bit to see the meaning you implied, is to be irresponsible.

But then, I'm used to that from you.

While people sell sounds, images, animations and scripts, as I already explained, they sell them in BOXES. They are not ACTIVE on that server, they are in BOXES which are PRIMS. You implied that the sheer weight of all the objects was lagging the sim. I pointed out that active scripts, most of them part of the infrastructure, were more the sim-laggers.

"Stuff for sale" is mainly boxes -- boxes of clothing, furniture, etc.

That means that in general, those individuals who commit this offense, will be disciplined. It means those individuals who we will find to be in violation will be turned over -- to make it clear it has consequences. It did not mean that at that time, they claimed they were turning over any certain people.

That's your interpretation. But it's not a conclusive interpretation. And that is the point.

Since it's apparent you've not bothered, let's get more of the quote, shall we? Here's more:

Although most people using Second Life are enjoying the fun and creativity that the platform provides, a few malicious individuals are intentionally acting to impair some or all of the Second Life grid. Please note that personal and account information of these individuals will be disclosed to appropriate law enforcement agencies for further investigation, including U.S. state and federal authorities and agencies in applicable international jurisdictions.

Lookie there. Sounds even *more* specific to me, especially as this was a statement made immediately after the late November attack. So are you finished yet, Prok? Or are you going to continue to interpret things, make assumptions, and then draw factual conclusions like you're obviously doing with the most recent comments?

The fact is, that entire passage says nothing. And neither do the most recent comments. They're open for interpretation because they say nothing conclusively. Consequently, I'll wait for the correct words (in the PAST tense) so that there is NO need for anyone's interpretation. Can we get the almighty Prokofy's permission to do that, o' fearless leader???

On the Nightline thing Csven, I merely mistyped "Nightline" when I mean to type "Night Live" -- obviously everyone knows that Ted Koppel doesn't cry "Jane you ignorant bitch," Dan Akyrod on SNL cries it.

You made a mistake. Pure and simple. Thank you for kinda admitting it ("Nightline" would not go to "Night Live"; it would be "Saturday Night Live"... all three words).

You've also made another mistake however. While to you interchanging the word "slut" and "bitch" might not be important; in the context of the times in which it was used, it is important to get it right. You cannot simply interchange those terms, Prok. The term "bitch" is not necessarily a bad word and would - in some cases if not this one - be a mark of honor and even a compliment (meaning "tough" and "resilient"); "slut" carries no such connotations under the circumstances and certainly not during time when that phrase was used (which is one reason why it's so famous). Apparently, those subleties - a kind of "literal-mindedness" - escape you.

You said objects, because you said "stuff that people sell," and stuff that people sell ARE objects.

Wrong. I said "stuff" because I was including more than objects - more than just prim geometry. But I see you lost the quotation marks! haha.

Because you keep forgetting, people can sell things that are NOT objects (selling a texture would be one example since it's not geometry but a jpg2k file; sounds would be another and those are .wav files, aso). Those are not "objects".

And I see you're now furiously back-peddling:

"Stuff for sale" is mainl boxes

"mainly"??? It's funny to watch you back into a corner and slowly concede your errors even if you won't directly admit them. haha. Pathetic.

He's talking about a generic few individuals, the few that are the bad apples in every bunch, he's not naming names -- it's clear somebody's doing something because the grid was crashed. He's saying "this is happening, we know it happens, and when we find these people, their names will be turned over." It's so clear that this is what it is about that I don't know how to break through your impairment on this, Csven.

Now, we can't know, can we, that back then, after the November attack that they might already have names? WE named names but after all, we aren't Lindens, are we, and have no facts to back up our suspicions? They have chat records, credit cards, IPs, etc.

Let me remind you that your beef in this debate, Csven, is that the Lindens aren't seeming to make a statement clear enough for you that they ALREADY turned in the names. You have broad disbelief in their follow-through capacity. Yet now you're arguing with me about Ginsu's statement, claiming that his statement represents in fact that thing you are saying they *didn't* say. Huh? How can you be arguing two positions like that?

If the Lindens aren't complete enough for you, then Ginsu's statement is obviously the generic thing you say it is (and I saw it as). Now Philip's statement is more definitive -- but you're doubling back and saying Ginsu was more definitive. Well, why not just ask him? I'm sure he'll respond to your IM. Then paste it here : )

Like I said, most of the thing at malls are objects, prims, things-in-world. They aren't scripts and textures. Textures usually tend to be sold in large stores set away from hubs, alone on their own, because of their need to rez and have a lot of room for display.

I'm not conceding any errors whatsoever. What's happening is that you are trying to chisel away at what you originally said, which clearly implicated stuff as objects, to double back and try to fold in scripts -- when you didn't say or imply that.

The scripts aren't the things for sale; objects are. The scripts, if they are for sale, are in boxes, or various items like vehicles, which are objects.

*Ginsu's statement is obviously NOT the generic thing -- you're making it out in fact to be a specific statement about turning in names.

It's so clear that this is what it is about that I don't know how to break through your impairment on this, Csven.

Is this as clear as "stuff" = "objects", comrade! haha

Why is it you simply can't allow anyone to have their OWN interpretation, Prok? Perhaps dictatorship is in your blood. Dissent must be crushed! Prok MUST be right and MUST attempt to correct people even if Prok doesn't have a clue what's being discussed.

How can you be arguing two positions like that?

That you ask this question betrays your lack of cognitive ability. I'm arguing only one position: "They're open for interpretation because they say nothing conclusively." Neither statement says that they've turned over names. Period. THAT is my position, Prok. How much more clear does it need to be before that gets through to you??? How many times do you need to be told that your interpretation is not the only one and that, just because you're the ELITE Prokofy Neva of whatever magazine you got interviewed by recently (by your request - *mediaslut*) doesn't make you correct by default. It just makes you an arrogant jerk who goes around starting these exchanges to make yourself look intelligent... or something.

Like I said, most of the thing at malls are...

Who cares, Prok? "most"? On that other thread there were only absolutes coming out of you.
"stuff" = "object"
"You said "objects" and that means "objects."
"support systems" gets translated to "servers"
You're the worst translator I've ever come across!

Like I said, most of the thing at malls are objects, prims, things-in-world. They aren't scripts and textures. Textures usually tend to be sold in large stores set away from hubs, alone on their own, because of their need to rez and have a lot of room for display.

I'm not conceding any errors whatsoever. What's happening is that you are trying to chisel away at what you originally said, which clearly implicated stuff as objects, to double back and try to fold in scripts -- when you didn't say or imply that.

Prok, you're so full of shit I can't call it anything but shit. I shouldn't HAVE to say or imply that "stuff" is more than "objects" because anyone who "lives in SL" would understand that; "objects" is CLEARLY defined in the "SL Lexicon". Go back and read that other thread - especially my comments on lagging in Alleni when there was NO ONE AROUND and how not every store sells the way you think they should using boxes inside of simple vendors. Based on this comment:

"The scripts aren't the things for sale; objects are. The scripts, if they are for sale, are in boxes, or various items like vehicles, which are objects."

You obviously couldn't wrap your tiny mind around what I was saying on that thread. And you never answered those questions or explained from where all that lag came.

No wonder you created the term "techie-wiki". It's code for "people who talk about stuff about which I have no clue".

Um, Cven, if the Lindens say "already in process," why would that be like "I think I'll mow the lawn later". It means "already in process" like meetings are set up, faxes are being prepared whatever. They announced they were going to do it. They suffered another attack. Then they started the process.

I notice that CNET, Unintended Consequences, Clickable Culture (right here), metafilter, and various other news outlets and respected blogs had no trouble grasping the story here: Philip Linden called in the G-men. He didn't say "I think I might call in the G-men." The next time we can find him inworld at the WA or a townhall or something, we'll ask him. I'm sure we'll get something more definitive. Meanwhile, I have no doubt in my mind that he has called in the G-men. Full stop.

Anyone can have their own interpretation. But when Ginsu was speaking generally, and Philip was speaking specifically, it seems fine to admit that interpretation among the plethora of other spins that you'd like to put on it : )

I don't know if you realize that any lag at Alleni would be more likely caused by all those spinning *objects* the guy had in his casino -- scripts inside objects. Shut them off, less lag. They're gone now. Lag is gone, too.

Uh, yes I did explain where 'all that lag' came from Csven. Let's go over it again:

1. The telehub port function *itself*. It funnels avs into a sim. They pile up on each other's heads. They come out and blink in the air which is foggy and has nothing rezzing clearly yet. While it rezzes, they wait, and another av drops on their head. So avatars, and the telehub function itself were the single greatest causers of lag. They're gone now. And so is the lag ; )

2. Textures -- the reason these places rezzed so slowly is the use of textures over 512 -- but many malls, including mine and Anshe's and others, required 512 or below so these low-rez malls like you see of Anshe's in Ross aren't laggers.

3. Listening scripts like "Hi I'm on line" or "Hi Prokofy Welcome to Jane Doe Designs" -- these are terrific laggers -- again many mall owners banned them.

Most of the lag I've experienced in SL comes from Thinker's and Digital Culture and Future Salon meetings. It's the combination of all those inflated egos and hot air of pontificators.

Shoppers don't talk so much, so there's less lag : )

Bye, Csven, don't artifically dwell up Tony's blog here now on this topic you aren't contributing significantly too, rant on my blog and therefore prevent others from eye-bleeds : )

I notice that CNET, Unintended Consequences, Clickable Culture (right here), metafilter, and various other news outlets and respected blogs had no trouble grasping the story here: Philip Linden called in the G-men. He didn't say "I think I might call in the G-men." The next time we can find him inworld at the WA or a townhall or something, we'll ask him. I'm sure we'll get something more definitive. Meanwhile, I have no doubt in my mind that he has called in the G-men. Full stop.

That's the difference between us, Prok. So long as they agree with you, you trust all those sources (guess you've not been reading the same stories I have about journalism's eroding reputation). Maybe you find comfort in groupThink and fawning sycophants. I don't. I prefer to think for myself. Independently.

Freedom of thought, Prok. That's still allowed in America, isn't it?

Anyone can have their own interpretation. But when Ginsu was speaking generally, and Philip was speaking specifically, it seems fine to admit that interpretation among the plethora of other spins that you'd like to put on it

What did I say, Prok? I said,"When I hear directly from LL that they have turned over the information (past tense), then I'll take this news seriously." That's all. Is there something WRONG with that, Prok??? Is that so out-of-line with your InSaNE groupThink collective party line that it tortures you to allow it to go unchallenged here? Will I be banned and sent to some virtual gulag?

I don't know if you realize that any lag at Alleni would be more likely caused by all those spinning *objects* the guy had in his casino -- scripts inside objects. Shut them off, less lag. They're gone now. Lag is gone, too.

You DIDN'T read what I posted. Read it or don't bother commenting. If you'd bothered, then even you would see that the above comments (and the remainder) are just more I-can't-admit-I-was-wrong InSaNE, I'm-better-than-you, I-LIVE-in-SL arrogance. You're Elite FIC-like attitude is oppressively pungent, Prok. I guess that shouldn't be surprising; anyone who submits their own name to the developer so that they can worm into the media spotlight definitely thinks a bit too highly of themselves. Does your flatulence smell of roses, Prok? Have you considered bottling it and selling it?

"Bye"?

We should only be so lucky.