|
| |
What is Del.icio.us? |
|
| |
| |
Posted 2004-04-02 by Tony Walsh |
|
| |
| |
|
|
| |
" Delicious is a social bookmarks manager." Or not. Like many recent, nascent Web-based systems, such as Flickr, Delicious is nifty at first glance but its usefulness has yet to be fully realized.
As social software, Delicious offers a public, collective link-list; a personal link-list; it gives easy access to the personal pages of others, and the means to subscribe to anyone's link-list (thus creating one's own collective link-list consisting exclusively of contributions by selected individuals). Delicious is barely social- there is no communication between users, no matching services, and no way to "get to know" anyone aside from what links they have collected.
As a "bookmarks manager," Delicious offers the ability to add metadata to collected links, such as short and extended descriptions, and "tags"--words used to classify and categorize a link. The tags are displayed on the right side of a link-blog page, with a numeric indicator of how many links include each tag word. Clicking on a tag displays links that contain that tag. Links are also filed chronologically, and an archive of each day can be accessed. Between a time-based lookup and tag-based lookup, there is some organization here, but I'd hardly call it "management," particularly when compared to how traditional Favorites/Bookmarks are managed.
Delicious isn't social software, it's a blindly inclusive, collective publishing system. It's not a bookmark manager because it lacks some fundamental tools, most notably the ability to arrange tags (categories) into a nested format, and the dependency on time--it's not necessarily useful to know which days links were filed on. What if I'd rather list links in alphabetical order?
So what is Delicious, and what use is it? I believe Delicious is best described as a collective "link-blog" system. Delicious may be an abbreviated blog, in the sense that its content is comprised primarily of URLs, but there is room for personal commentary if contributors wanted to add some to their filed links. In its current state, visiting Delicious' main page is the information equivalent of a shotgun blast to the face--some pellets will stick, some won't, some will only scrape the surface, and others will go right into your brain. It's mostly unfiltered, and seems to be treading into overkill territory--although popular links are highlighted, and recently added URLs are filed at the top (each time a new user files it in their own collection) Delicious may soon need some form of "threshold" whereby unpopular links are not immediately seen.
The spectre of popularity contests and gaming the system looms large. Frankly, it'd be all too easy to pollute the current Delicious by falsifying the popularity of certain URLs--all one would have to do is set up a number of dummy Delicious accounts and then add a particular link to each account's collection--suddenly your page goes up from one link to twenty, all the while being bumped to the top of the page whenever it's copied to a new collection. Another use is to turn Delicious into a mirror of one's own blog, guaranteeing frequent exposure on the site as well as the likelihood of generating more traffic. All one would have to do (and it's probably been done already) is create a widget that posts to Delicious every time a weblog entry is posted--so you'd post in your main blog as always, but then the entry is mirrored on Delicious. But who wants to read your crappy blog postings on Delicious? Imagine if a thousand people were doing this every day--utter trash on the main page every minute of the day.
What Delicious needs is not only some clear direction as far as what it will or could become, but a fulfillment of its purported "social" and "management" aspects. And the biggest part of management, given the signal-to-noise ratio, is the addition of many more filtering features.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
... share
via  |
|
| |
18 Comments |
|
| |
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by nowak
April 2, 2004 @ 5:24 pm
| |
|
|
| |
Del.icio.us as discussion site:
http://del.icio.us/url/d68ad90c9c8c03c1939404e6e9b1a25f
The simplicity of del.icio.us is what appeals to me, and it's been perfect for what I wanted it to do (and I've been using it since November, so it's sort of become routine at this point). Signal vs noise is definitely a concern, but that's where your inbox comes into play. And in this way, it is very social.
While there isn't any direct linkage between users, it becomes quite clear and quite evident as to who connects to whom. And, as with any social network, like-minded individuals and individuals with similar interests inevitably congregate. I can see this in my own del.icio.us inbox.
There are many issues still, yes, but it's still open for suggestions and discussion
http://del.icio.us/doc/about
and many of the issues you raise have already been mentioned on the mailing list to some extent. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
April 3, 2004 @ 10:06 am
| |
|
|
| |
Thanks for posting, n0wak. Just in case I haven't been clear about this, I don't think Delicious sucks, I just don't think it's reached an "obviously useful" level yet.
The signal-to-noise issue, for me, even affects my Inbox. Yes, it's cool that I can see what you and hyakugei are linking to, but no, I don't really want to see *everything* you're linking to. There is no tag filter for the Inbox, and there is no subscription filter by username. I'm only subscribed to two people and I think the page is a mess (no offense--this has little to do with you and hyakugei and much to do with Delicious).
I'm not sure what passes for the definition of "social" these days, but I suspect it's a pretty broad description. In my opinion, watching someone is not social, and the ability to know who is watching whom is not social--these are non-interactive activities. It's like saying that you have a social relationship with David Letterman because you tune in every night--you hear what he's saying, and you see who his friends are... The way I see it, there has to at minimum be some form of mutual recognition between the watcher and the watched, and even then it'd be hard to call this relationship "social." More accurately, a social relationship is one that is mutually consensual (not just recognition, but consent), otherwise what you have are "stalkers" and "stalked." Delicious currently doesn't ask anyone permission to subscribe to feeds, and there is no communication between users--one can't exactly say that because one has subscribed to a number of feeds, that one's Inbox represents some kind of congregation--it's a collection of feeds, and nothing more. Now, if subscribing to each feed required the permission of the feed owner, that would imply some mutual consent, and would be more social. A group of "willing" feeds is like a party with invited guests.
Out of curiosity, what is it that you wanted Delicious to do that it has fulfilled? It looks like you using it as a supplement to your blog--which I think is one of the best uses for Delicious at this point. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by hyakugei
April 5, 2004 @ 10:45 am
| |
|
|
| |
I'm in the process of doing a reply to this and an update to my own post about DEL. Just a FYI, you can sub to an individual TAG for a particular USER. So, you could sub to any of my posts that have a TAG of PYTHON. That is one way that you can filter your inbox - only sub to TAGs from USERs that you are interested in. You might think USER JohnSmith has great links for the TAG socialsoftware, but you don't want to see his dogporn links. No problem, just sub to his socialsoftware TAGs...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
April 5, 2004 @ 10:59 am
| |
|
|
| |
Dude, that's a good, useful filter-- thanks for pointing it out. I took a look at your page and the "subscribe" link is context-sensitive as you have described. Delicious needs a nice usability scrub-down, though. That link should say what you are subscribing to. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
April 5, 2004 @ 4:57 pm
| |
|
|
| |
OK, here is some genuinely dumbass Delicious behaviour.
I add a link to Delicious. It's a link that I wish to cross-reference with a discussion here at Clickable Culture. I put a URL from this blog into the Extended field. Delicious decides to insert a space into the URL I entered, thus rendering it impossible to resolve correctly if pasted into a browser address bar.
Is this a bug or a feature? If it's a feature, what purpose does it serve?
Why should Delicious decide it knows better than me what I would like to put in the Extended field? If I wanted a space in there, I'd put a space in there. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by hyakugei
April 6, 2004 @ 8:36 am
| |
|
|
| |
Huh, i've never tried that - it does sound like a bug - i'll mention it on the dev list and see what comes up. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
April 6, 2004 @ 9:13 am
| |
|
|
| |
I believe the space was right after a forward slash and before the next portion of the URL. I tried a couple different ways of formatting the URL but there was a space both times. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by liam
July 2, 2004 @ 10:59 am
| |
|
|
| |
Ahhh, I think I'm starting to see the benefits of del.ico.us (spelling it is still a bitch, though.) I agree with Tony in that it's a bit of a stretch to call it "social bookmarking". "Voyeur Bookmarking" is closer, I'll show you mine if you show me yours sort of thing. But I'll keep playing with it and see where it goes. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
July 2, 2004 @ 2:44 pm
| |
|
|
| |
The three ways in which Del.icio.us has most made itself useful to me are:
1) Linkmining
2) Trendspotting
3) Self-promotion
I like having access to a never-ending stream of linkage, it's like drinking from a river of caffeinated vodka all day. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by John Beeler
July 8, 2004 @ 1:28 am
| |
|
|
| |
I think you raise some good points Tony, but I also believe that you ought to give it more time to play with. If delicious has one major fault, it's that it's unbelievably undocumented. There are nuances and layers to delicious' use that don't reveal themselves until they become repeated behavior.
Social? I've discovered dozens of links by exploring other people's categories and using the "All Users" link in the right side. I'm not sure how that's not social bookmarking. I think you're thinking of social as some kind of AOL chatting community or support group. Delicious is simple, and so why mess with peripheries like message boards or instant messaging, if that's what you mean? Social means quite a few things, but merely because I'm not "talking" to someone doesn't mean I'm not communicating. If I wanted to talk more to them, I can visit their blog. So why replicate exactly the same thing as a blog?
You mentioned the lack of nesting, which tells me that you simply don't "get" delicious. That's not evil or bad, it's just that you should probably research flat organizational method, or at least read the delicious discussion archives, before dismissing flat organization for a nested hierarchy. In the end, the flat hierarchy of delicious is far more powerful than nested. Google agrees. Gmail is a powerful demonstration of the power of flat organization. You will never see nested organization in Gmail, because like delicious it uses labels (tags), not folders. Again, read through the delicious discussion archives for more on this.
Yeah, delicious is very rough around the edges. There are potentials for abuse that luckily haven't quite been exploited yet. But there is order in the chaos. I've often seen web trends, such as funny flash animations, or insightful blog posts, for example, pop up on delicious days before they show up on daypop's top 40.
Steven Garrity, of Acts of Volition blog fame, wrote recently about a book entitled How Buildings Learn. The author discusses something called "low road" design, in relation to buildings. Delicious is low road design. It ain't pretty, it's rough, and does the job down and dirty. But it does the job, and it does it suprisingly well if you're willing to get your hands dirty in it.
The best advice for anyone wanting to use delicious is to skim through the delicious discussion archives. There's a wealth of information there, and much of what you mentioned has already been addressed. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
July 8, 2004 @ 9:33 am
| |
|
|
| |
John, thanks for adding your comments, I enjoyed reading them and feel motivated to respond.
I think you raise some good points Tony, but I also believe that you ought to give it more time to play with.
I've been using Del.icio.us since April, and my opinion of it as a social bookmarking tool hasn't changed much. I do, however visit it many times daily.
If delicious has one major fault, it's that it's unbelievably undocumented. There are nuances and layers to delicious' use that don't reveal themselves until they become repeated behavior.
Hence my not "getting" it :)
Lack of documentation for something that has many nuanced layers is nearly unforgiveable :)
Social? I've discovered dozens of links by exploring other people's categories and using the "All Users" link in the right side. I'm not sure how that's not social bookmarking.
When you go to a DVD-rental store, and you find a rack of staff picks, do you consider the act of browsing the staff picks to be "social?" I don't, but I think that's just a difference of opinion. If one of the staff was actually standing nearby their picks and could tell you why they made those choices-- or if you could leave a sticky-note on one of the DVDs saying "this movie sucks" then we've got a social situation.
I think you're thinking of social as some kind of AOL chatting community or support group.
Nah, not at all. I think how I discussed this in the article plus the example above should give a good idea of my definition of "social." It's the whole idea of watching vs. interacting. I'm no social scientist, so if there's a technical definition of "social" that applies to Del.icio.us, then shame on me :)
Delicious is simple, and so why mess with peripheries like message boards or instant messaging, if that's what you mean?
I wouldn't want either of those features necessarily. Del.icio.us is fine the way it is, I just don't think it can be considered anything other than "collective" or "user-created."
This being said, if there was even a small and simple way to have a dialog between users, then we're into the social realm.
Social means quite a few things, but merely because I'm not "talking" to someone doesn't mean I'm not communicating.
Is there nonverbal communication going on at Del.icio.us? Could you elaborate more on this? I'm interested in how Del.icio.us' nonverbal communication might be different from someone's blogroll or a google web page, or a playlist on Live365.
You mentioned the lack of nesting, which tells me that you simply don't "get" delicious.
That's because I am a chimp.
That's not evil or bad, it's just that you should probably research flat organizational method, or at least read the delicious discussion archives, before dismissing flat organization for a nested hierarchy.
I guess you think that because I'd like to nest my bookmarks, I don't understand the flat organizational method. Wrong. I do understand it, and it obviously has its uses, but I want the *option* of nesting or at least the ability to define some sort of relationship between tags, i.e. "Computer" is related to "Hardware" which is related to "Landfill."
In the end, the flat hierarchy of delicious is far more powerful than nested. Google agrees. Gmail is a powerful demonstration of the power of flat organization.
Yeah, I don't like Gmail's setup either. Sorry. Personal preference. iTunes on the other hand, while having a flat data heirarchy, seems deal with organization much better than Del.icio.us.
I've often seen web trends, such as funny flash animations, or insightful blog posts, for example, pop up on delicious days before they show up on daypop's top 40.
*nods* I posted a comment to this thread on July 2nd stating how useful Del.icio.us is as a trendspotting tool. It's one of the top three things I use it for.
Delicious is low road design. It ain't pretty, it's rough, and does the job down and dirty. But it does the job, and it does it suprisingly well if you're willing to get your hands dirty in it.
And there's the rub. If I have to get my hands dirty, it means the machine wasn't designed well (or was designed to dig dirt, heh) and is forcing me to go under the hood and tinker. Does Del.icio.us bill itself as "Social Bookmarking for Advanced Tinkerers"? Should it require me to have to get my hands dirty in order to "get it?" I don't think so, but that's just me. I do enjoy tinkering, but not with every tool out there-- and these days I don't have much tinkering time.
The best advice for anyone wanting to use delicious is to skim through the delicious discussion archives. There's a wealth of information there, and much of what you mentioned has already been addressed.
I think we have fundamentally different ways of looking at information :) In my opinion, the best tools might require basic instructions, but not a 100-page backgrounder. Del.icio.us could be a lot more user-friendly across the board, without having to require a ton of reading. As a basis of comparison, I got right into Flickr, Orkut, LinkedIn, and other services because they were straightforward and user-friendly. They made perfect sense from the get-go (even if most of them didn't turn out to be very useful).
Now, I'm not saying Del.icio.us needs to be newb-friendly. If it wants to be for advanced users and webheads, that's fine. I'm getting plenty of use out of it even if I don't like how it organizes my bookmarks. But I don't use it for bookmarking. I use it to troll for readers, linkmining, and trendspotting.
Thanks again for your contribution to this discussion, and by all means feel free to continue. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by John
July 8, 2004 @ 1:03 pm
| |
|
|
| |
I hope I didn't come across as "delicious is for the elite and you're not one of them." In re-reading my response, and your response to my response, I think it might have come across that way.
I think that the sticky-note equivalent in delicious is the extended (but optional) field. Take this guy's links: http://del.icio.us/dreww/morons. His comments are exactly the equivalent of a video store employee commenting on a movie. Also, how did he organize these particular links? For one person, Orkut might be in "socialtools" or "communities." For this guy, it's under "morons." I think that's as much communication as one needs to know how he feels about orkut.
As far as the ability to connect two tags, try visiting your delicious bookmarks with this link instead:
http://del.iciou.us/new/username
Click on a tag, say "blogs", and in the related fields you'll see a "+". When you go to the + link, say "friends" it will pull up all the bookmarks that are tagged "blogs" and "friends." Is that what you're looking for? It could very well be a personal preference, but as I've used delicious and gmail more I wonder if it's just that we're _so_ used to nested organization that it takes some time to get used to flat. A bookmark in a nest is just that - difficult to find unless you know specifically where you hid it. If I bookmark a friend's blog with a nested organization scheme, I would have to save it twice - under friends AND blogs. With flat organization, the item is independent of the organizational method. You probably already knew that, I imagine.
I think we agree that the lack of documentation is bad. I've been slowly working on a FAQ for delicious that might help alleviate that. Still, it's fun discovering things that documentation didn't spell out for me.
Thanks for the talk. =) |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
July 8, 2004 @ 1:31 pm
| |
|
|
| |
I hope I didn't come across as "delicious is for the elite and you're not one of them."
Not really. I don't mind being non-elite anyway :)
I think that the sticky-note equivalent in delicious is the extended (but optional) field.
What I'd really like to see with a link is the ability to view a list of the extended field entries for everyone who bookmarked that link. Having one extended field entry for the last user who copied the bookmark doesn't tell me much. I want to know what all the other people said. This small change would allow the kind of dialog I think Del.icio.us needs to become more social.
Take this guy's links: http://del.icio.us/dreww/morons. His comments are exactly the equivalent of a video store employee commenting on a movie.
Except that you can't ask him for a rationale for his opinion. In fact, you can't communicate with him at all. So, we know what his opinion is, but we don't know why he espouses it, and we can't talk to him about. No dialog there at all. That's worse than watching Ebert & Roeper-- at least they explain themselves :)
...as I've used delicious and gmail more I wonder if it's just that we're _so_ used to nested organization that it takes some time to get used to flat.
That's exactly it. For me, nesting also reduces visual clutter, which sounds meaningless isn't. To me.
I'm all for flat organization provided multiple cosmetic relationships can be defined (as you've pointed out they can in Del.icio.us.). The only reason I haven't gone with a flat hierarchy for this site is that my blogging engine doesn't easily allow me to set up cosmetic overlays where multiple tags can be grouped and shared across groups. I am all for a system by which one level of categories can be combined to produce sensible results- for example, I'd like to be able to combine "Computers" and "Play" which would more than likely list all computer games (in listing all entries tagged both Computers AND Play).
I think we agree that the lack of documentation is bad. I've been slowly working on a FAQ for delicious that might help alleviate that. Still, it's fun discovering things that documentation didn't spell out for me.
Looking forward to the FAQ, it'll doubtless be very helpful. Keep on rockin' *metal salute* |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
September 30, 2004 @ 2:53 pm
| |
|
|
| |
Hah. I'm vindicated. Del.icio.us is not social software because it lacks conversation [ Shirky]. It's a broadcast, not a dialogue (as I screamed to the heavens in earlier posts in this discussion).
Shirky holds Groups and Conversations up as the two core attributes of social software. If you care what he thinks. I do because I agree with him :) |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Cienna
September 30, 2004 @ 5:44 pm
| |
|
|
| |
I'm not really concerned with the social aspects of it, other than filling my del.icio.us inbox with quasi-useful links.
But, if you pair any of the pages up with the new Firefox Live Bookmarks it's wonderfully sexy, in that web-geek sort of way: direct integration with the browser.
I always hated bookmarks because they only existed on one machine in one browser. Now I just dump things into del.icio.us (usually with a 'readlater' tag) at home or at work and don't have to worry about what is physically on the machine in front of me. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by Tony Walsh
September 30, 2004 @ 5:49 pm
| |
|
|
| |
Thanks for the comments, Cienna :)
The Firefox integration is SWEET. It should be working for this weblog, but isn't for some reason.
The funny thing is that I dislike letting an external service handling my bookmarks. What would happen if Del.icio.us blew up tomorrow? No bookmarks for you.
I'd use Del.ici.ous more if I could use it to post to my weblog system (or visa versa). At least that way there'd be a backup of sorts for all those links. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by hyakugei
September 30, 2004 @ 8:22 pm
| |
|
|
| |
There is an XMLRPC post to blog alpha tool available:
http://del.icio.us/settings/$USERNAME/daily
job_name is a name for the posting thingy
out_name is the login name for the site
out_pass is the password for the site
out_url is the xmlrpc url, probably like mt-xmlrpc.cgi
out_time is the GMT hour to post on, 0-23.
out_blog_id is the blog id #
out_cat_id is the optional category id
I'm not sure what blogging posting standard this uses (blogger's, metablog etc), but it works for MT blogs.
There is also a 'history' bookmarklet that i use to see who else has posted a URL to del.icio.us - i'll post that next. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
| |
Comment posted by jos
September 30, 2004 @ 8:57 pm
| |
|
|
| |
Here is how to get a list of who else has posted a URL to del.icio.us.
<a href="[removed]location.href='http://del.icio.us/url?url=' + location.href;">Del.icio.us History</a>
Drag the link to your bookmarks. When you are on a page that you want to know about its del.icio.us history, just click the link. |
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
[
Detailed
Search ]
Clickable Conversation
5224 comments
on 4161 entries
I vote for popup radial menus.
Highlight a bit of text, the push and hold, Sims-style radial menu pops up with Copy, Paste, etc....
in More iPhone Gestures, Please
Yeah, there's a lot of weird common sense things I've noticed they've just omitted from the design. No idea why though....
in More iPhone Gestures, Please
Clickable Culture Feeds:
Accessibility:
Clickable CultureCopyright (c)1999-2007 in whole or in part
Tony Walsh.
Trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by
their respective owners. Comments owned by the Poster. Shop as usual, and
avoid panic buying.
|